|
| Thread: ***MAP REVIEW AND SUBMISSION*** |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
|
bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
|
posted September 22, 2002 05:22 PM |
|
|
***MAP REVIEW AND SUBMISSION***
I would like a new thread opened just for map problem solving, reviews and if you can't e-mail me or the council for some reason...give us a link.
We do have some notes for all of you fine map makers:
We all know how much effort every one of you puts into your maps, and it is appriciated. I personnally look at about 40 maps a week (at this time), and there is a few points that I check on first before I send them on to Ves:
Elevation tool: Did you use it at least a little?
Quest Grail: Auto no go for me because 3do / new world computing needs to make them a random location, instead of any yahoo looking on editor knowing location.
Plant life: Is there too much or not enough? People are trying to overfill the map and it just looks crowded.
Towns: Generally speaking for a 2 player M map more than 2 towns is too much...generally.
Astetics: Is the map OVER done as a whole.
Balance: How well balanced, between players I.E. does one guy have 2 4th lev dwellings and the other 2 2nd lev?
Well there's a basic idea of how we look at a map to see if it is even ready to be playtested, before it goes on to Ves (with our personal comments)to be added on.
____________
god please spare me from my contribulations
|
|
Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
|
posted September 23, 2002 12:41 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I would like a new thread opened just for map problem solving, reviews and if you can't e-mail me or the council for some reason...give us a link.
We do have some notes for all of you fine map makers:
We all know how much effort every one of you puts into your maps, and it is appriciated. I personnally look at about 40 maps a week (at this time), and there is a few points that I check on first before I send them on to Ves:
Elevation tool: Did you use it at least a little?
Quest Grail: Auto no go for me because 3do / new world computing needs to make them a random location, instead of any yahoo looking on editor knowing location.
Plant life: Is there too much or not enough? People are trying to overfill the map and it just looks crowded.
Towns: Generally speaking for a 2 player M map more than 2 towns is too much...generally.
Astetics: Is the map OVER done as a whole.
Balance: How well balanced, between players I.E. does one guy have 2 4th lev dwellings and the other 2 2nd lev?
Well there's a basic idea of how we look at a map to see if it is even ready to be playtested, before it goes on to Ves (with our personal comments)to be added on.
-- My Comments --
- Like Jex said, if the radius of the "X" is something small like 2 squares, then ok, tell the mapmaker to change this. But 10+ squares and it will take the player forever to find it just because there are so many possible squares... also keep in mind that, even if you dont like having oracles/grail at all, the oracle reward could be something as small as 1000 gold and not the grail...
Anyway, I hope you realize that an "X" on the map shouldnt mean "auto no go" of the map.
- plant life... I wouldnt wanna be too strict here as people are always coming out with new cool looking ways of decorating... however, the general rule should be no huge empty spaces of nothingness.
- towns... again, i wouldnt be too strict here... in h3 toh, maps ranged from just the two starting towns to several extra towns for each player... both can be fun.
- "Astetics: Is the map OVER done as a whole."
not quite sure what that one means  ... clarification por favor
- Balance... you have a good point here. HOWEVER... With Homm4, similarly to Homm3, i am going to be campaigning - A MAP DOES NOT HAVE TO BE MIRRORED TO BE BALANCED. And also, each player does not have to have the exact same things in his area for it to be balanced. One of the things that I like in maps is to have different players have different advantages. For instance, one has quicker access to a gold mine, while the other has 1 more minor arty in his region, while the other has a less-vulnerable position than the other players... stuff like that.
Surely we'll see plenty of mirror maps in H4 ToH... which is fine, but I really hope to see some non-mirrored maps displaying some of the features I just mentioned... this can be much more fun to play than a mirrored map.
____________
My Site
|
|
bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
|
|
posted September 23, 2002 01:51 AM |
|
|
I think that we as a council are going to have to come up with a standard for pre-posting map checks. I don't think there is any way around it. I am working on a basic standard in my own document here at home, using the input of others and what I have noted to be sensible.
As for the grail or other quests, we are going to have to come to a concensis as to what is acceptable radius. I am looking into it.
Astetics on maybe half the maps I have received are cluttered with people checking out the new things...this is great, sometimes they just need to be toned down.
Mirrored and non mirrored maps...I definatly aprriciate both, it is exactly like you said, as long as it is fair, and fun... thats what counts.
Furthermore, I gladly accept all maps from all makers, and check every one. I personally do things in a regimented fashion so I can check 20 maps in 4 hours if need be.
keep up the good work guys, and thx for the input.
____________
god please spare me from my contribulations
|
|
vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
|
|
posted September 23, 2002 04:17 AM |
|
|
minor clarification
its Aesthetics 
____________
|
|
Joel
Adventuring Hero
An Underdog (Version 2.0)
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 01:13 AM |
|
Edited By: Joel on 23 Sep 2002
|
Starting something
Bobntamr1; I'm not sure exactly what you want for this thread but I'm giving it a shot. I've played 3 new maps lately and I'm just throwing some comments out on them.
Coastland Jewels: Ok I played this one as a 3 way free for all until week 5. That's when we got the "waiting for player" bug thing that Zud and Japjer are talking about.
This was a good game and I only have 1 problem with it. Orange can take a 2nd castle on the 2nd turn. No other color can do this. The player who played Orange jumped out to an early lead and stayed that way the entire game according to the Theives Guild(yes, I know the theives Guild isn't that accurate).
All I know is that being able to get an extra hero and the extra income helps. I was Green and would have got Dragon Cave week 1 if I only had a few more resources to trade. With the extra income from a 2nd town I would have.
Other than that little thing it was a good map.
Death Valley: Just played this today. I liked this map, it lends itself to a fairly quick game. Order has a slight disadvantage because it's slow troops won't be able to take a castle in the 1st turn. This puts it a turn behind the others in building.
Of course starting with a lord more than makes up for this as it's nobility will provide balance.
This is a rich semi-open map that has a nice twist with the mines. Scouts are very important on this map!
Well Bobntamr1 is this kind of what you want for this thread? Or am I way off?
Joel
|
|
bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 04:24 AM |
|
|
lmao oops yes this is exactly what I was looking for, we will work on these this week.
i got a couple from map makers today but i will work on them tomorrow.
____________
god please spare me from my contribulations
|
|
Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 06:16 AM |
|
|
Quote:
All I know is that being able to get an extra hero and the extra income helps. I was Green and would have got Dragon Cave week 1 if I only had a few more resources to trade. With the extra income from a 2nd town I would have.
Although I respect your opinion... did you miss the GOLD MINE (1000 per day) that green has in its area (guarded only by wimpy L2) that the other players dont have??? This easily makes up and then some for the money you didnt get from a town (750 per day)... not to mention the other goodies green gets in compensation for not getting a true 2nd town (although they have easy sabotaging opportunity of blue's 2nd town).
And yeah, orange gets town earliest, but he has disadvantages relative to the other players also.
To be short, the scenario is balanced and can be won with any player.
Although if you really want me to explain why the entire map is balanced, I can.
(and BELIEVE ME, it is balanced. with such a hectic scenario and different players having different advantages and disadvantages, it took many, many playtests and many, many changes to get it right)
|
|
vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 06:45 AM |
|
|
good discussion here
and thats what we need is discussion then modification of blatant imbalances on maps. However, remember not to get too carried away either, for a perfect mirror for balance means a boring map. I know over time map players will become more and more nitpicky about the maps, like in the later seasons of homm3.
____________
|
|
splexx
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 06:58 AM |
|
|
not to be nitpicky
but you guys are already beginning talk of map memorization and it hasn't even been a month...lmao
3doh...random generator plz...lol
|
|
Joel
Adventuring Hero
An Underdog (Version 2.0)
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 07:32 AM |
|
|
Hi Camelnor Quote:
did you miss the GOLD MINE (1000 per day) that green has in its area (guarded only by wimpy L2) that the other players dont have???
That gold mine was about 6 turns away from me. Especially when you have to go through swamp because the Lvl 4 guards will attack you on the road. So it's about a week before I can reach it.
On normal difficulty orange can take 2nd town and build a city hall day 2. Plus, and here's the real bonus (imo), orange can buy a third hero while the other colors can't. A week's worth of extra experience really, really helps. Wouldn't you agree?
I also would like to point out that 23-27 evil eyes are not wimpy! Especially when all you have is 2 efreets and 5 medusas. It's not a fight I can take in the first week. If you set it to something like Satyrs, ok, than it's wimpy.
I'm not even mentioning the fact that orange gets a few extra lvl 1s when they take that castle. Because it obviously doesn't help in the first few turns right?(sarcasm here, btw)
I'll admit, I never played the map after the 5th week. By that time I'd taken over and killed Teal but had not taken the gold mine yet. Teal was easier than those blasted evil eyes.
It may well be balanced in the later stages of the game, I don't know. All I saw was that one color gets a better start than the others, imo. I'll take a 2nd castle over the gold mine any day of the week! That way if I don't like my starting castle I can switch and build the 2nd as my main.
That's all I'm trying to say. I still think it's a good map, well designed and fun. I just think that there's a minor flaw. I thought that's what this thread was for?
If you feel I'm missing the point or just being really dumb, email me at jiels@ureach.com, or look for me in Gamespy. My handle there is jiels.
Splexx: I wish that 3DO had made a random generator too but until then here's a few questions for you to ponder.
How many times do you have to play a map before it takes you memorize it? How many times do you have to play a random before you figure out how to play? Or what to do on certain templates? How many times did you play 6LM10 before you decided that it sucks?
I can't stand Ring but many other random players do......I have no clue why.
Joel
____________
The Myrmidons and Underdogs
|
|
bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 05:42 PM |
|
|
Thank you all for the great input, e-mails and map submitals. Keep it up.
I would like to say that mirror maps are ok for me to play, personnally. I am well known to be a random map lover (not scientist lol). The maps that we have have been coming along pretty well I think. I don't know how some of you do it, I have put in about 11 hours on my one map and havent gotten it half done, of course i respond to e-mail and play a game at the same time lol maybe thats why anyways I just wanted to thank you all.
PS mooters could you remove the accidental quote post i made earlier..please?..I dont know if possible but would be nice.
____________
god please spare me from my contribulations
|
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 24, 2002 06:15 PM |
|
|
Random Maps
While some of us still miss Random Map Generator, there can be maps that are impossible to memorize. Or maps that we basically can call random. And I mean it. This can be done via Timed Event (occurs on day 1), Numeric Variable(s), Editor Bombs and Triggerable Events. If you know some scripting it shouldn't be hard to figure this out. Let me give a short example:
Random (Timed Event that happens on day 1):
Sequence:
Set Random to random number between 1 and 3.
If Random = 1 then Delete Adventure Objects Under Markers Named Mountains, Trigger Towns 1.
If Random = 2 then Delete Adventure Objects Under Markers Named Forests, Trigger Towns 2.
If Random = 3 then Delete Adventure Objects Under Markers Named Objects, Trigger Towns 3.
Lets say that there are three towns and three players in the map. I just show what Events there are in one of the towns (others have somewhat same events put their actions are different).
Preserve.
Trigger Towns 1:
Change Ownership to Red Player.
Trigger Towns 2:
Change Ownership to Blue Player.
Trigger Towns 3:
Change Ownership to Green Player.
Then there should be some Adventure map objects that block some paths or hide some locations under them. They can be removed with bombs (in a random way).
____________
|
|
Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
|
|
posted September 25, 2002 12:15 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Hi Camelnor Quote:
did you miss the GOLD MINE (1000 per day) that green has in its area (guarded only by wimpy L2) that the other players dont have???
That gold mine was about 6 turns away from me. Especially when you have to go through swamp because the Lvl 4 guards will attack you on the road. So it's about a week before I can reach it.
On normal difficulty orange can take 2nd town and build a city hall day 2. Plus, and here's the real bonus (imo), orange can buy a third hero while the other colors can't. A week's worth of extra experience really, really helps. Wouldn't you agree?
I also would like to point out that 23-27 evil eyes are not wimpy! Especially when all you have is 2 efreets and 5 medusas. It's not a fight I can take in the first week. If you set it to something like Satyrs, ok, than it's wimpy.
I'm not even mentioning the fact that orange gets a few extra lvl 1s when they take that castle. Because it obviously doesn't help in the first few turns right?(sarcasm here, btw)
I'll admit, I never played the map after the 5th week. By that time I'd taken over and killed Teal but had not taken the gold mine yet. Teal was easier than those blasted evil eyes.
It may well be balanced in the later stages of the game, I don't know. All I saw was that one color gets a better start than the others, imo. I'll take a 2nd castle over the gold mine any day of the week! That way if I don't like my starting castle I can switch and build the 2nd as my main.
That's all I'm trying to say. I still think it's a good map, well designed and fun. I just think that there's a minor flaw. I thought that's what this thread was for?
If you feel I'm missing the point or just being really dumb, email me at jiels@ureach.com, or look for me in Gamespy. My handle there is jiels.
takes a week to get the gold mine? I know I can do it faster :-P... but anyway, you dont hafto go through the swamp. (well, you might hafto step one space off the road for a couple steps, but nothing serious)
Also, can you really afford to buy a city hall in both castles so early? I mean city hall is 2500 + a bunch of other resources which really hurts you when going for L3 in both towns.
Basically the key for green is to move quickly. He has a big resource advantage over other players (1 gold mine, more loose resources, 2 windmills) so he has to take advantage of this and dominate the middle early, so that the other players are stifled and can't develop their 2nd towns very well. (or he can concentrate on beating the L3 on the road in order to capture blue's 2nd town... if you get a weak L3 on the road, it's actually possible to capture Blue's 2nd town before he does and try to make a stand)
BTW - those evil eyes you were talking about are random L2's... so you just got unlucky with a hard L2.
And BoBntamr, I believe you can delete your own post by clicking edit and then checking a "delete" box or some such.
|
|
Max_Apes
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted September 28, 2002 02:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Random Maps
While some of us still miss Random Map Generator, there can be maps that are impossible to memorize. Or maps that we basically can call random. And I mean it. This can be done via Timed Event (occurs on day 1), Numeric Variable(s), Editor Bombs and Triggerable Events. If you know some scripting it shouldn't be hard to figure this out. Let me give a short example:
Random (Timed Event that happens on day 1):
Sequence:
Set Random to random number between 1 and 3.
If Random = 1 then Delete Adventure Objects Under Markers Named Mountains, Trigger Towns 1.
If Random = 2 then Delete Adventure Objects Under Markers Named Forests, Trigger Towns 2.
If Random = 3 then Delete Adventure Objects Under Markers Named Objects, Trigger Towns 3.
Lets say that there are three towns and three players in the map. I just show what Events there are in one of the towns (others have somewhat same events put their actions are different).
Preserve.
Trigger Towns 1:
Change Ownership to Red Player.
Trigger Towns 2:
Change Ownership to Blue Player.
Trigger Towns 3:
Change Ownership to Green Player.
Then there should be some Adventure map objects that block some paths or hide some locations under them. They can be removed with bombs (in a random way).
LOL!! This is my idea!
You can find THIS map on www.heroes.ag.ru. Map name - "Unknown Lands".
Link: http://www.heroes.ag.ru/maps/m/Unknown_Lands.zip
The Idea name is "Pseudo-Random Technology", Publish september,23 on site www.heroes.ag.ru.
(c) Max_Apes, max_apes@mail.ru
Good luck! Random-Map Generator by scripts!
PS Readme-fail in Russian language. Now I am writting Readme-fail in English language.
PSPS Sorry, my English not so good.
____________
|
|
vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
|
|
posted September 28, 2002 06:19 PM |
|
|
this seems very interesting
I dont have the ability or time to work with these scripts, but this seems a great tourney idea, to make good maps with these script and 'random them', then make a subtourney out of it. Anyone with the ability to make some good maps? lol
____________
|
|
Max_Apes
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted September 28, 2002 07:52 PM |
|
|
Proposal to Vesuvius&TOH
I created the first map with this technology, if it is interesting you, I'd like to submit this map to you with english Readme.
And I also can make "script template" with manual for creating maps like that easily for all map makers.
Is this proposal interest for you?
PS Sorry for bad english again
____________
|
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 28, 2002 08:37 PM |
|
|
Are you sure you made the first map with this idea? As I recall Live on the Volcano has a somewhat same idea (unless that is made by you). Anyway, is your map written in english? I could view it so long as it is not written in russian. And Ves, I can make such a map, it is not even hard. But XL maps will always take some time and I don't think I have enough of that. Maybe I will, maybe I wont.
Note that if the player has done the random map in above way I described, it can be balanced random map.
____________
|
|
Max_Apes
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted September 28, 2002 09:39 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Are you sure you made the first map with this idea? As I recall Live on the Volcano has a somewhat same idea (unless that is made by you). Anyway, is your map written in english? I could view it so long as it is not written in russian. And Ves, I can make such a map, it is not even hard. But XL maps will always take some time and I don't think I have enough of that. Maybe I will, maybe I wont.
Note that if the player has done the random map in above way I described, it can be balanced random map.
Please tell me the truth, have you seen "Unknown Lands"? I suppose, if you have seen it, than you must told it in your post(september 24). If you haven't seen it, than I say 'Sorry, I was wrong' .
I created random map with pseudo-random technology and sent it to Internet, September 23.
I know map Live on the Volkano, and I know it's author. But if you download the map Unknown Lands, you will see the many many differences. I reply to your post, because my map Unknown Lands created like you wrote.
I wrote the English-Readme, but there are a lot of grammarical errors there (Sorry):
Scenario information.
Map Name: Unknown Lands
Version: 1.1
Author: Max_Apes
E-mail Address: max_apes@mail.ru
Map Type: Multiplayer ONLY, 2 Human Players
Map Size: Medium
Underground: Yes
Game version: HOMM4 v.2.0
Language: English
Special Win: Defeat all enemy towns and armies.
Special Loss: Lose all your towns and armies.
Special Other: This map created with "Pseudo-Random Technology".
Description:
1) Main feature: "Pseudo-Random Technology". There are more than 30 random-variables. And more than 100 functions and bombs. Every group of objects are depend of random-variable. After starting the game, all groups of objects are delete except one group. There is a Random-effect, because there are lot of random-variables.
Example: with 20 random-variables (1..3), the quantity of map variants are 8000.
2) Second feature: every player may have one of two starting place. And another player been unaware, where the first player is situated.
3) Map form. In this map 4 starting places of triangle form. The triangles are not symmetrical in above- ground and undeground. Each starting place have three passages to another three starting places. Towns are situated in the centres of triangles. Trerefore three different strategies:
a) to enemy starting town
b) to your second town
c) to enemy second town
4) Monsters in passages are also no stationary. Variants and probabilityes:
a) MON3 (400 PEON) - 25%
b) MON3 (550 PEON) - 50%
c) MON4 (700 PEON) - 25%
5) Starting bonus to all players: 5000 gold. Some objects near the towns are stationary:
a) Sawmill, Ore Pit
b) Three wood, three ore
c) Gold mine, guard MON2
d) Gold mine, guard MON3
f) Five random-resourses, five gold
g) Trading post, guard MON2
h) Tavern, guard MON2
6) Dwellings, near every town, stationary:
a) Four dwellings level one.
b) Two dwellings level two, gold, guard MON2 (100 PEON).
random:
One dwelling level three.
7) Some starting bonuses are no stationary. Variants:
a) Learning stone, Dream Teacher, two treasures.
b) Two Learning stones, treasure.
c) Two Dream Teachers, two treasures.
Buildings in starting towns: tavern, city hall, both level one dwellings, caravan.
Additional buildings in neutral towns: blacksmith, citadel, mage guild levels 1-3, random level two and three dwellings.
9) Map design. 95% terrains with no terrain penalty.
10) Disable:
Skill Seamanship, spell Summon Ship, artifacts: Boots of Crocodile, Boots of the Explorer, Fireproof Boots, Logbook of the Master Sailor, Sandwalker Sandals, Seaman's Hat, Sextant, Snowshoes, Surefooted Boots.
Shrines of magic are not links anywhere.
Good luck in play .
PS I make a request for you. If you can correctly write this text, I said big thanks to you .
____________
|
|
Fidel
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted September 28, 2002 10:00 PM |
|
|
Torquemada
Have you played Torquemada? I don't know how its creator made it, but it's the best map around here.
|
|
Max_Apes
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted September 28, 2002 11:42 PM |
|
|
Torquemada
No, I haven't.
Please give me the link .
____________
|
| |
|
|
