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| Thread: Your view of the situation |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted October 30, 2002 10:51 PM |
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Your view of the situation
Hi everyone,
there are lots of complaints going on, and I don't feel like reading pages and pages of arguments to come to subjective conclusion. I think there's a better way. This thread. Here are the rules for this thread:
1) One post per member in this thread. Any more will be deleted.
2) State your view of the situation and your opinion on what should be done.
3) Do not respond to what others say. We are stating opinions here, not arguing with each others' opinions.
4) Follow the below guideline.
Guideline:
1) What I think about the situation is...
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
4) What I think the situation should be is...
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
Remember the WILL DO in number 5.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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RMS
Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
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posted October 30, 2002 11:59 PM |
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1) I think that the guideline should say that the complaint should actually be expressed so we know what the complaint actually is. Also, since it is not stated that it is forbidden to have more than one complaint at a time, if someone happens to have multiple complaints at different intervals, they should be able to post about them seperately to reduce the confusion.
2) This is my contribution to the situation.
3) Nothing yet.
4) As I said, there should be an extra guideline. Also, more than one post should be allowed.
5) Complain about complaints here...oh, I already did that. Well, nothing...I'm not going to do anything about it.
6) Agree with me.
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This space for rent.
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Rodent
Disgraceful
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2002 12:48 AM |
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Umm, I don't get you Mr Val, I mean u want us to obey the exact guideline,i mean what are we snowing robots?
I uderstand that there have to be some rulse but COME ON, next you're gonna tell me exact what to post. I'm sorry but i think this guideline is totally retarded, that's just my opinion... we are not the S.S. here, we're just some ppl trying to have fun.
Guideline:
1) What I think about the situation is...
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
4) What I think the situation should be is...
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 31, 2002 02:52 AM |
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*sighs* Geuss I will go first then shall I?
(oh yes I may add to this with edits later, but this should do for starters)
The situation as I see it? (that's one long post, you shouldn't ask for things like that)
Right now from my standpoint the community is a divided and largely right now is fighting amongst itself. Sometimes on trivial issues, often on important issues, but either way nothing is usually resolved, rather the issue is ignored or put off until some other point. From what I can see there are some rather seperate groups of members:
The main issue right now seems to be the argument between Stiven and people supporting him and the mods with those members who support them. I happen to fall into the second category. To summarise their arguments from what I see it:
Stiven: He believes that the mods and especially Hexa and Romana (when she was a mod) are biased against him and some members (whom he describes quite nicely as "Butt kissers"). He feels that he is unheard by the mods and they are so biased against him that any complaint he might make is written off from the start. He also sees heavy bias in the system of QP's and penalties which he blames on the moderator team. To some extent I know he has proof of this bias as he sees it.
Hexa/Romana/Conn and others (inc me): To some extent I think that no matter what stiven does or says now this group will utterly ignore it unless it is a personal insult. They see stiven as nothing more than someone out to get both Hexa and Romana and a serious problem to the forum with his "tossing" and attitude. They despise stiven's attitude to new members and the way he seems to never listen to other people and their opinions. I must admit I fall somewhat into this category as I have more than once been nearly prepared to kill stiven when he answers a point you make with lalalalalalalala. They don't agree that they are biased to the extent stiven claims, though Hexa does admit to ignoring stiven on a number of occaisions. Any bias that may be exhibited is felt as justified due to earlier events being allowed to pass over.
Then you have the neutrals in this matter, those who don't care much, or don't wish to see the argument at all or simply are not prepared to take either side as they do not wish to involve themselves in the periodic wars that occur between the 2 sides.
What I contributed: Well I have more than once been involved in arguments with stiven on more than one matter. I freely admit to flaming him more than once, and spending to long arguing without ever doing anything to solve the issue. Recently I have tried to bring some of the issues stiven to the mods by offering to bring them up with a couple of mods.
What others contributed to this situation is...
Both of the above 2 sides (inc me) have been responsible for making HC a war zone on more than one occaision, I think both sides also believe they have done all they can to solve the situation and see the other's side of the argument. I tend to think that the mods have done an awful lot to try and accomadate stiven and I know that romana as a Mod and member has done an awful lot to try and resolve some of the arguments, but to no avail as of yet.
Other issues:
The mods have little power in reality to silence or control members as things stand at present. They have been required on more than one occaision to appeal to the membership of HC explaining that they are at a loss to deal with certain factions disrupting the forum.
Whilst I think the COC is a nice document and fine in theory it often fails to go far enough. It relies far too much on the grace of each member to control themselves and not enough on the power of the mods to enforce the COC when needed. With respect Val you clearly are not able to spend as much time as is needed here to keep the forum clean and free of members such as Malice or DM. I seriously think you need to consider either more power for the existing mod team or deputising one of the existing mods to do the role you occupy when you are busy.
The QP system:
This is one of the main issues I have here. Frankly this entire system is divisive, promotes bias and opens up the mods to accusations like the ones stiven makes, whether founded or unfounded. When you have a system that hands out bonuses and penalties from 5 or 6 people you always end up with people making complaints about that system. It promotes bias because it is down to these 1/2 dozen and they with the greatest of respect are always likely to give QP's to people they like and think give quality opinions.
Personally I would prefer a system where penalties are more specific, IE banning, temporary bans, silences of members etc and no form of bonuses. I say this because the very idea of bonuses causes (though that is not the intention of course) infighting amongst members and jealousy. I can see the logic of a penalty system as it ensures bad members who flame or spam (such as malice or DM) are kept under control, but I genuinely believe that the bonus system is flawed and causes more problems than it solves.
What will I do:
Well I dunno, I mean I can offer my opinion and stop fighting with stiven all the time, but most of the problems as I see it are not likely to be solved the way I would wish them to be as the whole ethic of HC is not something I completely agree with as I think it is to lenient. I have for some time been considering just why I am a member here as I don't play heroes much anymore and I have never been one for spending my time somewhere where it is a constant fight to stay calm at people and not to argue with certain people. I'm not sure with the current system as it is that I really want to stay here as after all if I dislike the system so much I geuss it's much easier to simply find somewhere I do like and enjoy. Right now though I am working on the newsletter, and will continue on that until finished. After that I shall almost certainly pass the work onto someone else and then leave.
Prior to that though I am quite willing to do most things suggested by people as a way forward if they are the board's regulations or the consensus. I just don't like the current way the board is run or how it works.
What others can do:
I strongly suggest all members consider their replies to people they disagree with, and wonder if they would be percieved as trying to suggest solutions or just simply adding fuel to the already existing fire. The best way to deal with someone with an issue is to discuss it and propose possible solutions. All arguing and flaming will do is continue old arguments and solve nothing whatsoever.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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tuapui
Famous Hero
Poetic Psycho Baby BlackDragon
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posted October 31, 2002 03:36 AM |
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Edited By: tuapui on 31 Oct 2002
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Guideline:
1) I would like to complain about the flood protect, as there was a thread about it earlier http://www.heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=3&TID=6653 It seems that although it is totally useful to block spam, its getting in the way of editing posts. Other than that, on a lighter note, I think PrivateHudson and many other should be Banned from making long quality posts and making me read it. Like Dargon for example, always making such logical long arguments that it really gets me frustrated as I am too stoopid to make and good responses to his posts.
2) I can help you make a flash movie for HC if you like, but i dont see how otherwise I can contribute to assisting the situation.
3) Nothing yet, i suppose some mods may have brought it up in donut shop, but I never seen any changes besides scotty and his slipper.
4) Floodprotect shouldnt stop me from editing my posts.
5) I just did it. I complained. I wonder what else you are looking for?
6) I really dunno. I am internet illiterate, and i know nothing of HTML or JavaScript.
With my options stated clearly, I hope everything works out.
OKAY! One thing is I totally left out the flamewars. I don't see why there is a need to have flaming. I find it really childish behavior (Though some I might see as really witty comments) I might have misunderstood what you meant by "my view of the situation" i thought you just gave us a space to complain about certain factors. I dont see mod abuse as much of a problem here, but the main problem is all the witless remarks people make. Of course one way to clear things up is to ban people, but I dont see how this really works out. Nothing is being done. QPs mean absolutely nothing to people who are just out to offend others, or even seek the thrill of offending others. Nevertheless, an insult is none other, and I agree that the mods should be given the authority (and responsibility) to identify and remove the bad eggs in our community. I never noticed why this never applied earlier. And the thing about fairness and equality. WHATS UP with this, I never took QP seriously anyway. I never gained nor lost any QP since I arrived here, so I may not be somebody who has a right of experience. But I can say that QP only alters the floodprotect, which should be removed for editing posts. That is exactly why I complain about it. It shouldnt bother you if you dont care. If a mod takes away a QP from you, it doesnt matter, you have done something offensive to others and you deserve it. Even if you didnt, as most claim, or what you did was "not enough to qualify" So what? It is only a damn QP, your mother didnt die, your father didnt rape you, why cry over it. And if neither of these is the reason for flaming or insults, then you are deemed either joking or immature to say the least. It doesnt matter. No need to be violent. Take it like a man. If someone insults you, accept it. So what can they do is youre a wimp? Nothing. If they insult your beliefs, you dont need to care about them. They are different from you, and you jolly well learn that insulting them back is definitely not the way to resolve matters. If you lose a debate, dont cry over spilt milk.
And I would have a message for everyone who thinks otherwise. Go about what you believe in, don't let anyone stop you. But as you move along don't stop anyone, as that would prove you have no faith in your own beliefs.
Regards,
The Dragon 
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 <<<Hy
peractive Do not touch.
Highly Psychotically Poetic.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted October 31, 2002 03:43 AM |
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I, will give my mental energy to HC as a gift
1) What I think about the situation is...
-- It's not the first time, and wont be the last that this happens. I dont know everything, and I wasn't there but this is the outsiders opinion
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
-- Nothing sorry 
If we look really deep, everyone in the world made a contribution
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
-- There had to be someone else involved for it to be a situation. Meaning if I said "Hi", someone would have to say hi back for it to be a conversation. Not meaning much however, in the outsider's view.
4) What I think the situation should be is...
--Deemed as garbage-and not the new spam
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
--Adhear to the rule's of only making one post in this thread. Also convince HC we can use our energies making quality thread's, instead of a "disscussion" about this, and further situation's.
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
--Realize what the desired change is (Probably avoidance from this situation, and future one's like this) and achive their goal's.
 (the smiley row's are not a terrible HC trend)
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What are you up to
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 31, 2002 04:31 AM |
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1) What I think about the situation is...
I Believe that the situation is these flamewars, and the minor issue on noobs- There are some bad noobs, and there are some good noobs. For example- Nidghrin became mod less than 4 months after signing up with HC, thats a good noob- Dear Morons- he was banned less than 2 months of signing up, thats a bad noob. This is because some of them get proper guidance, and some of them get snow (excuse my laungage) but some of them want to start something- those people dont matter at all.
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
i devoted about 2 hours to making this thread to help noobs-The HC guide
3) What others contributed to this situation is...There has been so many attempts to help noobs i cant even begin to start
4) What I think the situation should be is...Im not sure i entirely understand this question.....
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...I will continue to improve myself and set an example for all noobs
6) What others can do to bring about change is... Stop flaming noobs, If they ask a question- answer it...if they make a stupid thread- dont flame or bash them, tell them it is inapproiate or something of the sort- if they make too many threads asking questions, politely tell them to put it all in one thread.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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TheEverLiving
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posted October 31, 2002 05:10 AM |
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Hi, I was praying for a Thread like this, hopefully it will help eradicate all the flaming. Well here we go..
1. current situation: In my opinion if everything stays as it is: The board will just fade away, the flaming is just out of control.
2. What I contributed to this situation is: Flamed people who flamed me and result in only one thing, destruction of the board but when made angry by certain people, well, I just feel the need to retaliate.
3. What others contributed to this situation is: Flaming.
4. What I think the situation should be is: anyone flaming/posting garbage should get warned once and if they don't comply their post deleted and banned from board.
5. What I WILL DO to bring about that change is: comply with the guidelines of the board.
6. What others can do to bring about change is: stick with the guidelines of the board and stop all the flaming.
Oo_TEL_oO
David Gray: As I'm Leaving (Live)
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Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
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posted October 31, 2002 11:55 AM |
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Guideline:
1) What I think about the situation is...
Hmm...the situation is that the tavern has become some sort of battlefield, with some very few members starting attacks on the mods each time they post. The situation has arrisen due to the fact that the mods pretty much don't have any real powers to stop anything, AND we have even been in the situation of having one mod once, with Lith being wihout a comp, Romy quitting, and RMS wasn't doing anything...And that in the context of you being around once every month or so...
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
For the most of it, i stayed out, seeing no pointin adding to the numbers of people fighting. I did take a side lately, though, since i felt( and still do) that i must show support for my frinds...esp when they are being attacked for no reason by whiners. If that was wrong, then i assume full responsabilty.
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
I think i have made that clear above.
4) What I think the situation should be is...
What i have been saying ever since the "power to the mods" letter...they really need that extra power if you can't be around on a more often and regular basis.
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
What can i do? I can stay out of the debate, though that's not an option if Hexa or Romy are still being attacked after this. Besides this, all i can do is bring the matter to your attention, and hope that you will take actions to solve it...and i can hope you do it sooner, rather than later..
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
The post above...and, as everyone said, go by the CoC...though, with all the optimism i'm capable of, i think that's just too hard for some members.
@PH: Though i'm not supposed to reply to anyone, i thought a clarification is needed...you said that i will ignore Stiven, except if he insults me...wrong. I will ignore him EVEN if he insults me...i will NOT ignore himif he continues to pick on Hexa or Romy.
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 Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted October 31, 2002 01:48 PM |
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1) What I think about the situation is: the QP system is falling apart because of several biased mod's and several well-known (responsible and promising ranked) and favored members. In sum, I believe that tavern has become the playland of certain mods and their friends. They are the kings&queens of this place, and others are serves <-- this is what they make me feel.
2) What I contributed to this situation is: I commented on the ongoing double standard. I tried to explain (since they refused that there was a "double standard") how they acted biased; and get flamed for it. I requested one of the mods to give me "bad-mannered" status in order to protest the situation, even though I did not break any of the rules.
3) What others contributed to this situation is: no comment
4) What I think the situation should be is: there should be a set pattern for QP's. There should be penalties against mods who deal +/-qp's for their own leisures. Every member's thought must be listened to on such issues. That is, whenever someone gets a +/- qp, and a reaction by several members occur, instead of listening only the mod and his friends, we should try to listen to the other parties. That is, we must not blindly defend the mods (i.e. look above). Remember, like themselves say, they are not perfect machines, they can make mistakes too.
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is: ? Isn't this thread about change?
6) What others can do to bring about change is: post on this thread?
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted October 31, 2002 02:36 PM |
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Edited By: bort on 6 Nov 2002
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Oh man, I shouldn't do this... Why oh why can't I prevent myself from getting involved? I guess this thread should be renamed "The airing of grievances"
Guideline:
1) What I think about the situation is...
Okay, quite honestly, I think this really started back with Dear Morons. Amazing, huh? He was a twit, but a pretty divisive twit. I thought the handling of that situation was really schizophrenic. DM would alternate between getting deserved penalties and what seemed to be appeasement bonuses -- I think people thought that if he had QPs, he'd start behaving himself or something. Anyway, as people who were around know, this culminated in a moderator vacation (quite alright, people take vacations) and a, for lack of a better phrase, breach of security in the form of a moderator password for DM. Many felt this was a no harm no foul situation, I and others did not. Next was a thread about "why I'm resigning" which was somehow even worse than all of those "why I'm leaving threads" that people post along with an apology that was essentially "I didn't do anything wrong in any way shape or form, but apparently you think I did, so I'll say 'sorry.' And oh, by the way, you are jerks for not supporting me unquestioningly.". Anyway, end result, DM gone, nothing else changed. I wasn't happy about this, but, hey, it's Val's site and I still like coming and reading the threads and chewing the fat. If Val thought it was bygones than gosh darned it, so can I!
The thing is, appearances aside, there was lingering resentment on both "sides." It was quiet, and honestly, I thought it was gone. Then I saw a thread entitled "Sir Stiven... GRRRR." Apparently, there had been a lot of sniping going around that I didn't know about. The basic argument was "I've let it go, why don't you let it go." "No, I've let it go, you let it go!" I don't know who started it, but I do know who made the thread "Sir Stiven... GRRR." I also know who fired first in "negative" and I know who the thread "One ear and out the other" was attacking, I know who it appeared to me was whining and I know that the final result of all of this crap was that several people, including myself, lost QPs. A certain member's second account (which you're not supposed to do anyway) lost a single QP while that member's primary account gained about 5.
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
I overreacted to something Aculius said, but I'm pretty sure that's all cleared up now. I made the thread "I mock your belief system" which I intended as comic relief but clearly failed at. I chose the wrong "side" which, since it meant things weren't quite so lopsided, probably escalated things.
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
You want me to catalogue everybody's contribution? Nah, I'm lazy. There aren't all that many innocents, though.
4) What I think the situation should be is...
Sunshine, lollipops and rainbows.
Seriously, I think the best thing would be to go find the threads in question (most are locked, so it won't be too hard) and delete them. There are some good posts, some bad, as well as evidence but this isn't a freaking court of law, it's a message board. The best thing might just be to sweep everything under the rug and pretend it never happened.
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
I think I'll stay out of the community type threads as much as I can resist. That's where the most conflict seems to occur.
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
Take a deep breath and count slowly to 10 before posting a reply to something you don't like.
Edit: QPs. I didn't talk about these in my post. Well, I've benefited more from the QP system than most. I've received QPs for posts that I don't think deserved QPs, but at the same time, there are some posts I've made that I thought were very good that didn't receive any recognition. It's clearly a devisive system. Here's my $0.02 about QPs. The floodprotect system is important. The QP system is not. How about this -- keep the QP system, eliminate red stars (I think those just rub it in people's faces) keep the last ten QPs portion of the profile and, here's the most important part, institute a new way to get QPs.
THE NEW WAY TO GET QPS should be:
The good standing rule
If you go 1 month without getting a -QP, you get a +QP. This doesn't eliminate all the problems, but it does mean that the people who are responsible in terms of not spamming will eventually be free of floodprotect, even if they don't make "quality" posts. At the same time, it means that if people who get penalties behave themselves for a month, all will be forgiven. (If you go another month without getting a penalty, you get another +Qp, so if you just behave yourself long enough, you are free of floodprotect.) If you want, it can be contingent on making at least one post during that month.
Edit 2 : While I'm on the subject, perhaps the easiest and best thing to do would be to remove the titles that come along with the red stars. I think the terms "responsible hero" and "promising hero" and "bad mannered hero" are conflicts waiting to happen.
Edit 3 : I know I'm not supposed to respond to other's posts in this thread, but erase it if you will. I just wanted to say
"a community is not a family. its a bunch of persons who have one thing in common - we have the game homm... its just ridiculous to expect all to love each other - its impossible."
--Insightfulschaff
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bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
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posted October 31, 2002 05:36 PM |
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1) What I think about the situation is...
I think that there are alot of people in this world who are unhappy with the things around them and not knowing how to deal with their emotions, they lash out. I don't really think the mods are fair myself, (no offence) but I am not about to publicly say that they are a bunch of jerks, because thats not true. I also think that "flamming" other people is rude, and usually uncalled for. Now this is not true in the case of 2 close freinds who banter back and forth. But, as a result this is what happens...a newbie sees this and reacts by Oh My God, how can they be that rude...or oh its ok to talk to people this way in their posts. This is a poor example of behavier. This comes from very old timers and myself, and mods as well.
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
I am not always the most positive person and I laugh at the idiots who think they are better than someone else. Also straying from the original topic of a post which also harms others and another method of how the 'flaming' starts
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
guys just because you have one doesn't mean u have to be one! and also negativity
4) What I think the situation should be is...
I think we should absolutly be able to argue our case and discuss it, just not violantly (although considering the game this is a oxymoron). I also think the mods should have the ability to delete posts that stray, or are rude, and should do so instead of giving a penalty only...Much like the honor council of ToH the mods buisness should be for mods, not the public eye...else everyone thinks they have a say in what to do...give Kitten angel a really big bat and let her use it on some folks =O) (she's my fav mod)
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
I will try and be possitive iand helpful to newbies in posts and attempt to encourage others to do the same.
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
walk away from the dirt slinging.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted November 01, 2002 07:44 PM |
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My original post said basically that I thought the situation was overblown and I didn't really care. But appearantly I do care(Go figure) so my statements can be seen in the Enough is Enough thread.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted November 02, 2002 05:46 PM |
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1) What I think about the situation is...
There ARE a number of problems. Anyone denying that is either blind, a true fool, or simply too much involved in one of the problems to have a clear judgement left. I will try to give an overview of what I consider to be the problem and everything connected to it.
- The heroes community, but especially the tavern has been split up in three large sections over time. This process is still evolving and the three factions are growing further apart. The three groups are named the 'tossers', the 'butt kissers', and then there's the ones that try to stay outside of the conflict. I prefer not to use these names and would rather call them the left wing, the right wing, and the neutrals.
- What I've seen happening in the months that I've been a member so far is periods where everything seems to be fine, but in fact new fights are slumbering shortly below the surface, and moments of fighting and extreme heat. I have the impression that the periods of calmness are shortening, which means that the conflicts are escalating. At the end of every unsuccesfully solved problem (penalties, locking threads, banning members) things are a bit worse than before, more people's opinions turn sour and more people join the left wing.
- My personal analysis of the situation is as follows. Some members that in the past (and still) contributed good posts to the community have at some point in the past objected against certain situations. They had problems but chose to out them in a rather offensive way. Most moderators and members misunderstood their complaints and started punishing/ignoring/nagging these few people because they considered them to be bad influences on the HC. The right wing was born. The few people who had complaints but could turn to no one who would listen grew more persistant and agressive every time the problem issue came up. But though they were disliked even more by the right wing, there were also other members who suddenly started to 'understand' what this was all about and started supporting these few complainers. This I call the left wing. These 'outcasts' try to use the flaws of the system to turn the system against itself. On their own these are very disruptive actions that are extremely bad for the HC as a whole. Unfortunately these are the only weapons these people have to make themselves heard, and even then they fail to deliver the message they want to tell. I cannot justify the actions of these people and I believe they should be punished. On the other hand I also believe that the reason why these people behave this way should be dealt with soon and thouroughly. We can't keep denying that there are problems, if there wouldn't be a problem there wouldn't be people that sabotage/attack the system. The right wing is in my eyes at least as much to blame as the left wing. They are the ones that keep ignoring the problem and deal with the results of the actions to complain about the problems in stead of dealing with the problem itself. Respect the people who raise their voice to utter a complaint, don't try to silence them. Let them have their word and try to work things out. Already many members from the left wing are almost unable to speak here at all because of floodprotect, some of them risk banning. Too many members from the right wing have quit the HC already or consider quitting because they realize the hopelessness of the current situation.
- Time to try and define the problems. I believe it's all connected to the subjectiveness of moderator actions. Closing threads and deleting posts to a lesser extent. Distributing penalties and handing out QP bonuses the more. Though all moderators have their own ways of applying the Code of Conduct in terms of penalizing and they are all more or less just, there are no easy ways to determine which member deserves a QP bonus and for what post. Moderators will always have people they like better than others, that's normal. It's hard however to let this have absolutely no influence on your judgement as moderator. QP lead to problems, no matter how many people claim that those little stars mean nothing to them, the whole QP system is rather subjective and open for complaints. If these complaints are ignored or laughed away you get a situation like the one we're in today.
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
- When I first joined, the HC was in the middle of a conflict. Confused I reacted by defending the moderators since I didn't understand where all the hate and bad stuff thrown at their heads came from. I thought they didn't deserve that, and I still do.
- Because I joined the right wing (without realizing) I received flames and tosses by members I had nothing to do with and in some cases didn't even know of. This made me dislike their tosser club even more and now jumped into every discussion where someone got flamed/tossed into his/her defense. I now think this is a typical pattern, many people follow this path. Not understanding what's going on and seeing a couple of 'bad people' make the keepers of order look bad and hurt the HC and its members to the core.
- After a conflict I got personally involved in, I had a long discussion with a member from 'the other side' on IM. It was then that I started realizing that the true problem wasn't that club of tossers. They were only the result of ignored complaints about the true problems. I contacted a few people, mods included but found out that people looked at me in a strange way. What's up with you, have you changed sides, there's nothing to worry about, just some people making noise because they love the attention were some of the answers I got.
- Now that I understood the problem better (my own questions were unanswered though I had asked them), I did a little experiment. What would happen if I, as a rather responsible member, would openly start criticizing on several hot issues too. The outcome confirmed what I had been expecting, unfortunately some other people got dragged away too and suffered penalties as well. I feel sorry for them, but in the end it was their own choice.
- At this point I decided that I had to step out of the conflicts and several days later I chose not to post in the tavern anymore (apart from RL threads). Some days later I reconsidered about those two things as I was given the opportunity to become moderator myself. I figured stepping out of the conflict wasn't going to change things.
- As a moderator I have profiled myself as true neutral, thereby sacrificing my own personal opinion about the disputes. I offered members the chance to come to me with their problems first, instead of getting themselves into trouble or throwing more fuel on the fire. The members who did contact me so far know that I do my best to stay neutral in this and that they can count on my discretion. This is hard, and I hope I won't lose friends here because of this, but I refuse to choose sides again. There is need for someone people can tell their complaints to without having to fear repercussions, I volunteer to be such someone.
- Contacted Valeriy to overview this situation. His unique position owes respect by both members and moderators, and he is unbiased whatsoever since he is not (and now still not) involved in it. In my opinion it's better to have all the discussions about problems in one single thread than have them scattered throughout the tavern or ruining good threads by going off topic. Thanks Valeriy for opening this debate, I hope this idea will have the effect I had in mind. That is gathering opinions and ways the problem should be dealt with. Then actually work together to get rid of the problem. I know several people will see me as a naive fool, perhaps they're right. But a small number of naive fools can change things for the best and accomplish peace. That I do know.
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
I appreciate the replies from all people in this thread. Thanks that you have found the courage to honestly state your opinion here. As for contribution to the problem, in a positive or negative way... Everyone has made mistakes, I have made no less myself in the past. Everyone believes in what he/she fights for, unfortunately both parties seem to have different goals and fail to realize that. Furthermore, no comments.
4) What I think the situation should be is...
In one sentence? Change the QP system. I have three proposals to change it, however all three have advantages and disadvantages. But they all offer a way out of the current problems.
- A. Get rid of the whole QP system. Pros: the current problems will be history. Cons: QP are part of the special things that make the heroes community so unique, will people still put the same amount of effort into making good posts?, how to deal with misbehaveour? - in a QP-less system the mods will need more options to be able to control CoC breaches.
- B. Get rid of the QP bonus system, keep the penalties and flood protect (invisible perhaps, apart from the moment of assignment). Pros: the current problems will undoubtably cool down and probably even disappear, perpetraitors can still be punished. Conns: will people still put the same amount of effort into making good posts?, the CoC should perhaps be specified some more to make sure there are no misunderstandings and rule breaches are always punished where not rule breaking actions are never punished - this to prevent the problem from arising anew.
- C. Further development of the QP system into different categories. Instead of just red stars there could be green stars for QP awarded for the best humorous posts, orange ones for the best strategical posts and purple ones for the best effort for the community (indexes, signalizing problems and the like). The yellow stars would indicate post count (as they do now), blue stars would be calculated out of the amount of posts, divided by the QP bonuses in the three categories, increased with the number of penalties having influence on the total flood protect count. Red stars would indicate penalties given. So in short: Green=humor, Orange=strategy, Purple=community, Yellow=posts, Blue=flood protect modifiers, Red=penalties. Pros: many of the current problems will disappear since now people will have a better view on why a certain post was awarded, people will value certain stars more than others - some won't care about the humor stars - others won't care about the strategic stars, this system will stimulate people to delete their own posts they consider to be below average or bad since it will lower their floodprotect, members will have a better idea about other members' behaviour when they take a look at the stars. Cons: This will mean a serious adaptation and the success of this idea is not guaranteed, this will give Valeriy an awful lot of work to implement it all - most probably too much work to ever take this system into consideration.
Another valuable idea is splitting up the tavern (the place of most arguements) into two separate parts. One part could include the more serious real life discussions. The other part could include the more typical 'tavern thingies' like games, jokes, funny stories, roleplaying, ... There are more than a few people that are annoyed by the presence of long boring (in their opinion) RL topics in the tavern. On the other hand there are quite some people that are realy sick of the countless spamming in the tavern pushing the quality threads (again in their eyes) down. Perhaps they are both right, perhaps those two things do not belong on the same forum. I'm not sure about this, perhaps the tavern should stay as it is right now. But it could be a second source of problems. Worth some thought anyway.
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
- I will continue my job as a neutral moderator in the Lands of Axeoth. Open to complaints and problems from both members and other moderators, even if the problems take place on other forums. People can count on my discretion and I will always try to find a solution that is best for all parties involved.
- If help is required considering the maintenance or updating of this community I offer my skills as a programmer if required (though my time is scarce already nowadays).
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
- Post their personal and honest opinion in this thread.
- Follow the rules for this thread set by Valeriy, meaning not responding to the post of someone else, one post only and follow the 6 guidelines.
- Work together to come up with a solution that suits everyone best or stay out of it at all.
- Believe in peace, don't give up. Contact me or someone else you thrust and explain your problem or grief in IM or email before you start posting on the boards and aggravate the situation in the future.
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nightshiver
Hired Hero
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posted November 04, 2002 03:50 AM |
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ok just a few comments from an outsider
If flamming is the problem create a flame forum god ill moderate it for u if no one else has the intestinal fortitude ppl will flame when things are slow you need to either accomodate this or be firm on it and allow absolutely none
QPs .....lol dump them lousy lousy idea to begin with absolutely meaningless.
Moderators, Administrators ok i have said this before More Mods more Admins more power.
current count at my site is 47 moderators 7 administrators all admins have FULL BOARD CONTROL we have someone on site 24/7
@VAL what is the issue here ?????? Why wont you create more Full administrators ????
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted November 04, 2002 06:32 PM |
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1) What I think about the situation is...
2) What I contributed to this situation is...
3) What others contributed to this situation is...
4) What I think the situation should be is...
5) What I WILL DO to bring about that change is...
6) What others can do to bring about change is...
Awwright...Whoo-whoo! Val finally is gonna pay attention to me! Ah, what a day. I knew you'd come around. Man, you won't regret this. Eh? What's that you said? "'Respond to the f****** post?'"
Awright,awright...you don't have to get mad. sheesh...
1. Sir Stiven is the ringleader and the dominating voice of a group of HC members who are upset about double standards of the mods and unfair treatment at their hands. He is completely correct. Unfortunately, he has the literary charisma of a dumptruck. So, instead of the majority of HC jumping on the bandwagon, screaming for objective mods(an oxymoron if there ever was one), he has alienated himself and his cause.
2. Um...I haven't contributed squat directly...though I have been awarded qps for posts that I didn't think were all that great. My best biting wit was usually reserved for Wesley and the triad of Cat, Romana, and Milena. Unfortunately, my genius was lost on the then mods of the Tavern. Their loss.
3. Any HC member who has been around a while when roaming the streets of HC--will avoid the dark alley where Andi, Motor, and the rest of the toh goons hang out. I have seen many a noob and vet take the wrong turn and end up getting mugged by that group.
The ones who have benefited from qp favoritism I won't point out Val, except for myself.
As for the other side, they have made a mockery of the qp system. I don't need to mention their names either.
4. Um...scrap the qp system. For a board that supposedly prides itself on its maturity, you have set up a system where you and the mods are parents, and the members are children. The most egregious example of this was with DM and the mods attempting to buy him off.
5. Personally, I'd like to engage in a flame war with the goons of toh and get them banned. Lol, that would be a shame though, because Andi is one of the best heroes players to grace HC and Motor is one of the cleverest. Ask Tewillger, as he started imitating Motor's unique sig. As for Stiven, I think he lost his goon membership when he started whining too much for the others' tastes.
6. Um...agree with me of course. They can put pressure on you to convince you to scrap the qp system.
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Tortoise
Known Hero
Master of Reptiles.
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posted November 05, 2002 06:33 AM |
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GOOO BORT GOGOGOGOGOO!!! YAY!!! BORT FOR PREZ!!! WOOO
Basically I totally agree with bort, qp system is hella (insert flame here)because i'm an average member, with average posts and average number of posts.... and i'm still dealing with this cursed FLOOD PROTECT !! GRRR
I was going to edit a post, but when i saw that floodprotect say 70 seconds! I said forget it and went upstairs.
I got 1 qp..... WOW WOW I'm THE KING OF THE WORLD!!!
Does anybody feel as special as me>>?? (Note the sarcasm.)
And the reason i got a qp was so ironic, was kinda dumb... meanwhile i actually put a long time into a thread i made about necros and it got 2 replies, not rating and 13 views... not my idea of justice...
I don't recall how i'm supposed to organize this , but its more of a vote for borts statements because he is right, dedicated and non-favoured members have just as much a right to get a chance to disable floodprotect as much as the popular qp junkies. And you know their are.... I'd be willing to make an estimate, that about 80% of all qp's are put onto about 10% of the accounts.... Just somethin to think about... anyways, go bort! 1 star per month is cool, so make it about a year for total flood pretect to be removed? And the red stars totally rub it in.....
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All living things have a history. The history of the Tortoise is long and rich.
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted November 05, 2002 04:09 PM |
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Just my two cents....
Well well, every time I drop by we seem to be rowing about something. Obviously, as I now have limited computer time, I skip rows in the reading and just read what I find interesting.
When you are here a lot though you can get very envolved in the community (it's all certain people talk about on the phone) and I think I know why. When you spend a lot of time doing something you often develop a passion for it and it's hard to be impartial from a passion. so everybody always has something to say.
As for trouble makers... everywhere has them. The policy of dealing with them is frankly not mine to make. We all have different views as to what work and my view is the polar opposite from the general HC ethos. Which is fine. But only a totalitarian rule will wipe them out totally. So you must decide what annoys you most. And stamp it out.
What have I contributed? Well, apathy. I can't keep up with HC and I am rarely here as I have administrative commitments to my other sites so they naturally have to come first. I have around two hours a week online so I have to use it wisely. Yeah, so I've been letting things go stale. And stale I think is the word. It is stale. When I have looked in I haven't been motivated to post so... well, there must be something.. some sort of "dullness" as I can always find something to say.
When I do find a fun thread it's full of "la la la, I am so great"; "not you're not"; "yes I am"... and miles off topic. Tres banal.
Nobody will like my view (as it's based in reality), but to somebody who spends a good deal more time IRL I have to say that some of the behaviour here is pathetic!! If people acted like this IRL nothing would ever get done at all. Why on earth do people, who I assume have some sort of employment or passtime or school, wish to come home at moan at people all night? Why? I've never heard of anything so stupid in all my life!
A community is like a family:- you may not like each other but at the end of the day you are stuck with each other. but lets get some perspective... you do not live here. To use an example, Motorschaff was not force to come here. It isn't school. If you think everybody is silly or you just hate things I strongly suggest getting out of the chair, walking to the door, opening it, closing it behind you, and experiancing reality for a brief period of time.
This is NOT reality. So stop treating it as your life.
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 Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2002 06:08 PM |
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well we all know whats the current situation . look at the posts above. some of em describe it very well.
we have a group of mods who favour their friends. we also have a group of buttkissers. well and we have a group of guys who dont like members of the first 2 groups - im one of em.
i intentionally worked on my "disgraceful" status . and im proud of it. im happy i got it cause i dont wanna have something in common with the buttkissers . for me its demonstrating against the QP system cause it totally sucks. i say remove all qp+ from all persons ...maybe then some show their true colors ..
also im kinda shocked that some peeps ,like cat above, say for example if i dont accept the things as they are i should leave. i say - no i wont. i just wanna now why do you and ur peeps not leave ? ah i know because me and some others are a minority or what ?
a community is not a family. its a bunch of persons who have one thing in common - we have the game homm... its just ridiculous to expect all to love each other - its impossible. some should really try to get this...
i love heroes - this is a heroes board - and i visit it therefore very often. and when i dont like the things which are goin on here i say it. maybe in some of the countries a few of u livin in its forbidden to say your opinion in public against your president/gouverment(or moderators) but here its not.
btw.: its really funny who val picks as moderators. it usually seem to become the guys who kiss most butts and tell " oh mods rule" more often than others. if u ever critisized anything u seem to be not wanted. seems to me like val is afraid of losing control.... well who knows what would happen if there would be a team member who wouldnt say "amen" to anything he and the other from "modsquad" say or do.
i simply call it weakness.
fighterschaaf
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 10, 2002 01:22 AM |
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Na Bort I forgot all about that little disagreement we had & it's all good & I am glad you stood up & talked to me & we worked it out all that same day.
Thats is all I am asking is to stand up if there is a problem & it can be solved but running from a problem is not the answer & Stiven is not a ringleader but an aprentice .
Gootch that sounds like a name from a sec in command army movie that always gets munched .
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Dreaming of a Better World
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