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| Thread: "Worse than 9/11" |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV |
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Peacemaker
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Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 03, 2004 11:22 PM |
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Hello again Defreni!
Yes, I agree that Saddam was a secular ruler. However, my mediocre memory serves me that Saddam had grand designs and fancied himself to become the leader of the region. His interest in Al Quaeda was as a uniting tool to win him ties with other "Arab" nations, including those under religious leadership, but mostly it was to win the confidence of the peoples in the region. Thus, his only interest in Al Quaeda was self-serving, but (I thought) we had clear intelligence that established he was sponsoring the movement within his country.
Once again I admonish you all that my memory on this is fuzzy! Please correct me if I'm wrong about this folks.
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Defreni
Promising
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posted June 03, 2004 11:46 PM |
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Well it has been taken up by the danish press on numerous occasions, that Saddam clearly did not have any association with Al-Qaeda. And that the danish military intelligence had absolutely no evidence to the contrary.
Considering the fact that the danish intelligence network get all their informations from U.S intelligence, and the fact that it would clearly have helped the danish government to persuade the public to aid the U.S led war against Iraq. Im pretty sure that Im correct on this issue.
Again at the moment I dont have any sources except damish newspapers to back me up on this point, and as most people dont speak danish it wouldnt do any good to link to these articles.
Regards
Defreni
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 04, 2004 07:29 PM |
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Well, it's interesting timing, but with the CIA director's resignation in the last couple of days has come a slew of reports and articles about this very subject.
Unfortunately they are all over the map on this issue -- some talking about the Saddam-Al Quaeda connection like it was the best established fact, and others talking like it was a total fabrication, depending on the source. Frankly I don't know what intelligence they actually have or what to think of it.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 06, 2004 12:25 PM |
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Well then I will wait for confirmation from either side.
But I must admit that here in Europe, there has been no doubt that Al-Qaeda was not in any way associated with Iraq.
Offcourse the general sentiment is against the U.S invasion of Iraq. But not even in G.B or Denmark has that contention been taken seriously, despite the fact that those 2 countries together with Poland and Australia is the staunchest allies of the U.S on this point.
Offcourse my points about the seriousness of Al-Chabi is most valid if it turns out that Saddam did not have any affiliations with Al-Qaeda, leads to the question why it is so important for Bush to show that there is such a connection.
And that is probably why it has been taken up by the press once again, after the pictures came out.
To summarize:
The U.S justification for invading Iraq hinges on 3 things.
1. Iraq in possesion of weapons of mass destruction.
(This is no longer valid)
2. A connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda.
(In Europe this is not valid, but I can see there is still a debate about this in the U.S)
3. Moral grounds (Saddam was a dictator that kills and tortures his own people. The U.S is liberating these people)
(This has always been contested in the Islamic world, but been a good justification in both Europe and the U.S, up untill the pictures from Abu-Chabi was released)
Which brings me back to why nr. 2. is suddenly being taking serious again. We must wait for concrete evidence on that point. Up untill that point people will probably choose what to believe based on their opinion about the war.
Regards
Defreni
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Lews_Therin
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posted June 07, 2004 03:30 AM |
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Hello Defreni!
Great to see you posting here again, and even more so that it´s on this part of the forum  .
At the moment, RL is keeping me from being too active here, but I´d like to add that your point 2 has also been confirmed by any serious media source, and any expert of the middle east situation (among them Peter Scholl-Latour) that I´ve seen or heard. The suspected Al Quaeda ties have never been substantiated.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 07, 2004 09:00 AM |
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Aloha Lews
Good to see you aswell. I know my point nr. 2 is a clear cut case in Europe. But if the question is still up for discussion in the U.S. There is no point in arguing it, before they decide either way 
Regards
Defreni
PS: I really miss those long hours on the zone, but it is difficult to squeeze in, when you have a full RL.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2004 11:51 PM |
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Well guess the case about wether there was contact between Saddam and Al-Qaeda has been decided.
The 11/9 commission has just released their report, which clearly states that there where no cooperation between the two.
Now its just interesting to see how the U.S will give the new Iraqi government the power in the country. And offcourse the cardinal point, if they will give up the control of the oil.
Regards
Defreni
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted June 18, 2004 02:54 PM |
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Hello again Defreni!
I just posted on this same topic in the Bush thread. I have not listened to the entire report on the 9/11 investigation yet, but keep hearing specific references to there being no relationship between Iraq and the specific action on 9/11.
Are they also saying there was no relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda in general? (Please see my other post). To me these are two different things (a relationship between Iraq and 9/11 versus a relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda.)
Hey Lews!!!! Howya???
Sorry for posting again on this without doing my homework on Scholl-Latour. I just want to be clear to everyone that I am talking out of school here and am operating on very thin information. Just throwing out ideas for the conversation.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted October 17, 2004 12:56 AM |
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Freedom From Fear?
 http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/16/protesters.terrorism.ap/index.html
This article raises a lot of questions. Some of which include latin american citizens being given special training and whether protestors should be screened with metal detectors. I think this thread is the appropriate place for its discussion.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 17, 2004 11:28 PM |
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See Also...
I received this e-mail on October 12, 2004. It concerns the listing of the yearly protest against the Columbus Day holiday celebrated here in the U.S. every October, spearheaded by the American Indian Movement (Colorado AIM), in the International Relations and Security Network's (ISN) website.
Quote:
Subject: Convoy of Conquest Protest makes the headlines on ISN Security
Watch.
This is how the ISN describes their news watch section, which is located on the front page of their website.
"The ISN's news services offer security related news stories, reference and background information, and analyses every weekday. These resources are also collected in subject-specific dossiers." ISN WEBSITE
Going to their homepage, one finds, at the top of the page, a section entitled "Security Watch" with a subsection labelled "Top Stories."
Under "Top "Stories," there are a list of 8 headlines. Here are a few of the headlines.
"Wave of violence continues in Pakistan"
"Explosion in Abkhazia fuels election confusion"
"Bosnian Serb war criminal 'surrenders' to Hague"
*Iraq rebels, US forces reach deal on Sadr City"
And coming in at Number 6 is this headline:
"Native Americans protest Columbus Day"
posted by Colorado AIM @ 7:00 PM (circa October 12, 2004).
(http://www.coloradoaim.org/blog/). Check the
blog as well as the tcd site (http://www.transformcolumbusday.org) for
other news coverage of the protest.
Now I want you all to remenber that until I simply got too busy with other things in my life, I used to be one of the individuals who, among other things, participated in this yearly protest.
I defy any of you to call me a terrorist because of it.
My many thanks to Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney, and the many signatories to the Patriot Act, nearly none of whom actually read the Act before signing it, since it hadn't even been published yet when they passed it.
So much for the U.S. Constitution.
(So sorry; do I sound a bit jaded???)
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted October 18, 2004 01:40 AM |
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Huh?
How is that related to "Worse than 9/11" Peacemaker? Um.... just wondering here.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 18, 2004 05:49 PM |
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Consis wrote:Quote:
How is that related to "Worse than 9/11" Peacemaker? Um.... just wondering here.
My response:
Mitakuye Oyasin
Translation:
"All things are related."
Actually Consis, I was following the line of thinking in your immediately previous post.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted October 19, 2004 03:43 AM |
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Yes And,
In that link you'll find a preposterous screening of protestors due to the events of 9/11. It is thus worse than 9/11 because our freedom is being chipped away by brainstorming metal detection supporting psychos. I simply think a change of ideology is more effective than setting up metal detectors every time people rally to protest something.
As for your post, I feel it reveals your usual protest against nationalism in general. Your indian heritage seems to conflict with the reality of modern times.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Khayman
Promising
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Underachiever
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posted October 19, 2004 05:30 AM |
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Quote:
Your indian heritage seems to conflict with the reality of modern times.
Umm...nevermind.
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted October 19, 2004 10:29 PM |
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(huh?)
Consis --
The connection between our posts is that protesters in general are being targeted as potential "terrorist threats" using Patriot Act- type thinking as an excuse to discourage or suppress such assemblies.
The connection to "worse than 9/11" -- for both our posts -- is that the Patriot Act (many believe) represents a real and growing threat to several constitutional liberties once held sacrosanct in this country.
The connection between protesting Columbus Day and any concern that could possibly be of interest to the International Relations and Security Network??? Well there isn't one. That's my whole point. So what the hell are they doing listing us with car-bombers, war criminals and Iraqi insurgents??? Get it?
As for my heritage being in conflict with modern realtiy, I have not a clue what you might be trying to say, but will not launch off on an attempt to speculate on it here because it clearly would be off-topic for this thread.
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2004 10:58 PM |
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I believe one of the great ironies of Bush/post 9/11 thinking is how he sounds off of on creating democracy and freedom abroad whilst eroding the very institutions that uphold the same in his own country. Fear has taken root in America and he has played that card to perfection thus fooling so many into thinking he is a leader worthy of another term.
Staying firm, staying the course when the direction is mis-guided and ill conceived is a foolish thing. If you look at the reasons for invading Iraq, and then look at Iran and how they are acting these days, and their on going support for terrorism in the past, one can only think the wrong country was invaded. One may conclude there was some unspoken motive in going after Iraq, rather that what was said.
When a country acts immorally, they lose their standing in the eyes of the world. When they emabark on useless ventures, they sap their strength. It may well be that the invasion of Iraq will be seen in the light of history as the beginning of the decline of the US as a preeminent
power in the world.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 01, 2005 06:46 AM |
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I've Something To Add . . .
A soldier. This is a job of 18-23 year old. I'm not talking about highly trained specialists but instead a simple foot soldier. These are the soldiers that may at some point during their service to their country be faced with the choice to kill a person.
My real concern is not with the weapon, or the training, or even what their officers are telling them to do. I worry that there are some soldiers who enter this job of a foot soldier and are willing to kill almost anything; including their selves. Some might call it "gung-ho" or a "well-motivated soldier" or perhaps "a young soldier".
My fear is discrimination. Wars do not make for ideal civil restraint. In fact a soldier is required to pull the trigger even if his commanding officer tells him to kill a pregnant woman. This is worse than 9/11.
When I was a soldier, I was never trained to kill indiscriminately or discriminately. I was simply taught to do exactly as my commanding officer told me. And yet here we are. We now find ourselves looking to put our soldiers on trial for inappropriate conduct. Where was their morality? Where is anyone's morality who is a soldier? They don't teach it in soldier training. I know this. They only teach you how to obey orders and how to stay within Geneva conventions protocol.
Do all soldiers act without morality? The answer is no. But then why not if they don't teach it in their training? It is because of the families from which these soldiers came; that's why. And they don't have to be blood-relatives to teach a growing young man what is "right" and "wrong". All a person needs to be is the kind that is willing to spend the time necessary for teaching that boy or girl how to be a good person and not simply a good employee.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted June 01, 2005 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
Where is anyone's morality who is a soldier? They don't teach it in soldier training. I know this. They only teach you how to obey orders and how to stay within Geneva conventions protocol.
I had a different experience. We were warned that comitting any kind of crimes, especially war crimes, is not an order a soldier has to obey.
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