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| Thread: The youth, and why they are headed into Hell |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Daddy
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and why not.
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posted December 04, 2004 01:37 AM |
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the First World.
the Third World.
Ah, I hate theese words. There is no 1st 2nd and 3rd world.
There is only this one world - rather say east or west, but not 3rd world 
Well to make a statement about the possibilitys of the eastern nations (well, take Svarog with Macedonia for example) to use their youth's potencial, I know too few about the industrial/social/political/whatever situation there..
reg
Daddy
Besides, allready Shekespeare said that "today's" (well his today^^) was terrible 
It's just this damn Generation-Gap..
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted December 04, 2004 12:06 PM |
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East and West... I feel that this way of naming the parts of Europe is obsolete. The Wall has fallen, there is no longer an Evil Empire, and most of what used to be East, is assimilating into the West, through the European Economic Community, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the European Union, and whatnot.
But the world is more than just Europe. To say otherwise is to be very Euro-centric.
And not only Shakepeare complained about the youth of his time. Socrtaes (or was it Plato?) did that as well...
I'm not sure, but isn't Trogdor 18 or something? You sure begin early...
To Svarog: The ideological crisis? What ideological crisis? What is an ideological crisis?
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Nidhgrin
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baking cookies from stardust
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posted December 04, 2004 12:12 PM |
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When a child commits a crime, should they be punished like an adult? Should kids go to jail for murder? Or should they be sent to juvenile re-habilitation centers? The reason I ask is because some kids kill people at the age of 10 and 11 mostly with guns.
- No, I don't think they should be punished like an adult. I don't think they can be expected to act and be as responsible as an adult and forsee the outcome of their actions as clearly.
- Depending on the crime I'd say in most cases sending them to a juvenile rehab center is a very bad idea. They'll pick up more bad ideas from other kids in rehab and this will socially isolate them further imo.
- I don't think 10/11 year old kids should have access to guns? This sounds like total madness to me. What's the difference between a game of counterstrike (and many kids of that age do play games like that) and playing with guns in the neighbourhood. Trouble is if the guns are real they may go off, and if they do - given the realistic shooting training from the game - people die.
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted December 04, 2004 12:15 PM |
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Gun control is the only answer.
And children shouldn't be executed. Why treat them like adults in this, when "we" treat them like senseless retards in all other cases?
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 04, 2004 07:10 PM |
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Nidhgrin,
Thankyou for responding(you and terje_the_mad_wizard were the only ones).
Quote:
A Florida judge sentenced 14-year-old Lionel Tate to life in prison on Friday for killing a 6-year-old girl when he was 12.
 http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/03/09/wrestling.sentence.04/index.html
Here is the youngest case of american child-related crime and sentencing to second degree murder. The young boy did not use a gun.
I must ask you, Nidhgrin, what do you think should be done about a boy so young who has killed someone? I respect your opinion and am always glad to hear what you think. Thanks.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted December 05, 2004 12:01 AM |
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Link Doesn't work.
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted December 05, 2004 12:12 AM |
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I'm not Nidhgrin but I'd still like to reply
In my opinion, such punishments should be case specific, and psychological disorders should be examined more carefully than with adult criminals. In a case like this, however, when we deal with nothing but pure murder by a child who obviously is a danger to society - a trial as an adult is the only option. Don't forget that the "child" was 12, not 6. I remember being 12. I can't say I thought clearly and didn't make mistakes, I can't say I was an adult, but I think I knew that I had certain responsibilities as a human being. Not killing people, for one. I think psychologists believe that children start thinking about others at the age of 7 or so. At 12, a child is an mature enough to know right from wrong.
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted December 05, 2004 02:33 AM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 4 Dec 2004
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The Fall of Byzantium
I’m sure a bunch of people here will have difficulties accepting this post. We, humans, find it so hard when our motives are suspected, even by ourselves, and tend to dogmatize them in the face of an approaching storm. It pains me just as much to speak of “Western decadence”, since that wave has swept over my country also.
Terje, IYY, and others, optimism and faith, are good, but can act almost like drugs, if ecstatic by their tranquilizing effect, we turn a blind eye to the disease spreading like cancer. I’m afraid the world spirit has started to act rather inversely. Or maybe it always has.
Today we witness a more than ever increasing gap between the “First” and the “Third” world, a gap so wide, that we might want to start talking about Fourth and even Fifth World. Social, ethnic, religious tensions boil. The power of what is right has been replaced with the right of all that is power. The individual forced into a vicious chain of survival, where failure doesn’t give a second chance, and leaves no choice. Man is alienating himself from his own nature. Surely, all these processes of our time gravitate around one hemisphere, as the primary force behind them. They radiate from that core, and spread around the globe as globalization gains momentum, just as they infiltrate the remaining native healthy cells.
“A society without heroes, is a rotten society” were the words of some guy. Take a look at the best selection of heroes we got for our young. These kids today don’t fall for Hesse, Sartre, Che Guevara, Lenon… They’ve been replaced with industrial products such as: Brad Pitt, 50 Cent, Miss World 200?, David Beckham and Kelly Osbourne. With this competition, we’d be better off without heroes, which is still rotten. There are attempts to fill in the ideological vacuum in the West with various Eastern alternative techniques for self-search and balance. Every day, more and more “successful people” turn to the Eastern lore for what the new unideology cant offer. But it’s all futile, because you cant cure cancer with aspirin.
Indeed, there are Don Quixoteans of our time, in the most positive meaning, struggling against their windmills. But they end up caught inside the machines’ system. Maybe the wind is too strong, or maybe the Don Quixotes are too few, but either way, I cant see a sign that the tide is turning into our favor.
A moment of silence, for Byzantium has fallen.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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IYY
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Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted December 05, 2004 02:44 AM |
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Svarog, your main problem in this case is accepting the fact that not all of this generation - in fact, not even half - have Brad Pitt, 50 Cent and Miss World 200 as their heroes. Again, I bring my old school as an example because that's where I've seen the largest collective of youth with whom I've had the change to socialize frequently for four years. Trust me on this one, in the rich, first world Canadaian suburbian school, The Che and Sartre never fail to beat Britney Spears. And I am not talking about expensive, American made T-shirts bearing the image of the communist hero, but true respect and understanding, after studying history and philosophy on their free time.
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Svarog
Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted December 05, 2004 03:09 AM |
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ALert! Large concentration of Don Quixotes in IYY's school! Where do you study? I will join you.
Whatever it is, I dont agree with that perspective of the world. Whats worse, facts dont agree with that perspective of the world.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Nidhgrin
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posted December 05, 2004 03:50 PM |
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A bit late, but better late than not I suppose 
From the perspective of the boy I see 2 possible paths to follow:
1 - the boy got angry with the girl, and having practiced some moves of his 'wrestling idols' he killed her 'accidentally', but deliberately wanted to hurt her out of agressivity
2 - the boy was practicing a wrestling-fantasy/dream in real life and was so out of touch with reality that he didn't realize what he was doing
In my opinion, point 2 would be valid for younger kids (say 5-7) but 12 year old kids should be able to tell fiction from reality. I believe it might have played a role but I think point 1 will be closer to the thruth. Concluding that, I'd have to say the boy is dangerous, and at least should get psychological help.
Nevertheless, I don't think the boy should go to jail for the following reasons:
- the mother has already lost a kid, I don't think she has to lose another unless there's absolutely no other way
- 12 year old boys do crazy things, I can personally vouch for that  Murder is very severe, but it's hard to believe the boy really consciously wanted to 'kill' his little sister. 12 year old boys grow into men, they change day and night in the next 9 or so years. 12 years old is too soon to say there is no hope for improval in my opinion.
- with professional help, or even medication, there's a good chance this boy will be able to control his violence and lead a more or less 'normal' life.
- most people leave jail as much less good people than who they were when they entered
So personally I'd say mandatory daily psychological guidance and medication, which both can be decreased if the situation improves. If after two or so years the conclusion of the doctors sounds that there is no improval I'd say jail is the only option.
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Rindle
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 02, 2005 03:35 AM |
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IYY wrote:
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I don't know, I think Nietzsche was pretty serious when he said that.
Yes he was. Friedrich Nietzsche was very much against religion, and he challenged the foundations of traditional morality and Christianity. And of course we all know how much Christians like having their beliefs challenged. In other words, he wasn't very popular among them.
Quote:
But then again, Nietzsche was crazy.
No, but he was called that by the same people who (for obvious reasons) didn't like the line "God is dead"
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Lady_Milena
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Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted January 02, 2005 11:34 AM |
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Hell
I had a post down somewhere. It's about the vision of hell and heaven and I had my input out there. For those too lazy to check it out, I'll say the gist here. Hell and heaven are usually identified with various religions, most of all Christianity (and Islam). Said religions claim there is life after death. The 'good followers' have a reserved spot for heaven, or the place of eternal beauty, rest and praise, while 'sinners' are kicked to hell, where they suffer in agony and pain. As I'm a follower of a non-religious religion, I take a more practical approach to such statements. I look at heaven and hell as places on earth, places people do go because of the way they behave. Perpetual depression and feeling of loss -is- hell for me. "Friend, I have lost my way". Losing your way if you ask me is the shortcut to hell.
People are unhappy now as they have been in the past, though for different reasons. Disappointment, cheating, debauchery have been there for as long as humankind has existed.
I'm a follower of the concept of 'the egg and the chicken' (have I made a post about it? Please remind me. If I haven't, I will.) The basics of it are that the more opportunities a person has at hands, the more likely it is he'd exploit them. Great power also envokes great corruption.
Let's compare the youth today to what young people were 6 ceturies ago. Most of the kids back at that time were very poor peasants all over Europe who had to work hard to make both ends meet. No one was concerned with children rights or building funds for college and all that. Work, sleep, eat the little food you have. I'm telling you, that's not a lot of chance to 'rock'. On the other hand, see what happens now. There are laws restricting this and that but also the means to cheat the regulations. People live much more stressful lives today - that's for a fact. Not only people on top but everyone. Even children. It's a very natural thing to turn to drugs and alcohol and what not. Why? Because it's a way to escape the reality we become more and more aware of because of televion and Internet per say. Second, adults do it too, so why not?
The adults factor is very important. Parents especially are the ones to teach with words but most of all examples. If the parents smoke and tell their children: smoking is bad, are the children going to believe them? Not likely. More likely the kids will smoke too. See what happens on TV and not only in movies. All the blood and violence that was talked about in the past is now visually presented for everyone to see. Parents can hardly affect what they show on TV. Can hardly stop the overall madness of the century take over their kids.
There are nightclubs? Adults want to enter? So do kids. There are drugs out there? Kids are curious and stressed. Adults cheat all the times, with documents, words, on their spouses. Following right behind is just inevitable.
Are we headed to Hell? I say we're straight out there already. I myself am quite aware of what's going on in the world these days and I have one word for it: madness. And oh, it's getting crazier in there too. Children are the ones who take the suffering too, being the more helpless and gullible of society.
What happens these days sickens me, not only because of circumstances that parents can't help but also because of such they can and they don't. I'll give you just one example. A real example from the very real life. 11-year-old girls who still don't have their periods with dyed hairs and makeup to match a Hollywood star in quantity. There was that little (probably 8-year-old) girl at the mall with her mother. She was dressed in a pink tanktop, black miniskirt, her eyes were blue with makeup, her nails pink with polish, her hair was sprayed with sparkle. High-heeled shoes on her feet. HEY! Is this what youth is today?
I agree with you: hell is VERY real and very close. I disagree with the heading part of it. Many kids are there already.
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God does not need exist to save us...
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guitarguy
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Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 04, 2005 04:59 AM |
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In my opinion, the place called Hell is not the same thing as the "hell" we go through here on Earth in our lives. The difference between the two probably stretches to the extremes. Kids who drink and do drugs are, to me, placing themselves in a "hell" only relative to us and our reality. The Hell as in the place, however, would be completely separate from such a earthly hell. Human beings cannot possibly comprehend the pain and suffering that goes on in the real Hell. I am approaching this from a Christian perspective, realizing not everyone shares the same views; I respect that. Only human, I could be as wrong as anybody else.
-guitarguy
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted January 10, 2005 02:50 PM |
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Quote:
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But then again, Nietzsche was crazy.
No, but he was called that by the same people who (for obvious reasons) didn't like the line "God is dead"
Actually, he, like most of Europe's finest, had syphilis. And madness is as far as I know a large part of syph...
I might be wrong, though...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted January 10, 2005 03:39 PM |
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OMFG!
Terje_the_mad_wizard ROFLMAO!
.....can't stop laughing
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted January 10, 2005 08:01 PM |
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What?
I think I read somewhere that he was, along with Lenin and a bunch of others...
Goethe, too, I think... At least it was a gang of Germans involved in the thing.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Rindle
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2005 09:20 PM |
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Edited By: Rindle on 10 Jan 2005
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Terje wrote:
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Actually, he, like most of Europe's finest, had syphilis. And madness is as far as I know a large part of syph...
I might be wrong, though...
Yes, it is widely believed that he had syphilis. However, recent research in the Journal of Medical Biography shows that syphilis is not consistent with Nietzsche's symptoms, and that the contention that he had the disease originated in anti-Nietzschean tracts.
If you read his works you'll see that it was not written by an insane man, but rather a man with a vision.
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted January 10, 2005 09:22 PM |
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Ok, then that was sorted out. The book I read it in was from the 60s, so that would explain the un-updatedness of it all...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Svarog
Honorable
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 11, 2005 02:31 AM |
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I think I read somewhere that he was, along with Lenin and a bunch of others...
Blasphemy!
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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