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| Thread: I don't understand a few things, explain please | |
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2001 01:06 PM |
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I don't understand a few things, explain please
I have read many previews, interviews, and other features about Heroes IV, but there are a few things I would like explained to me. Maybe my reading comprehension just sucks.
I know there are 9 primary skills. How many can each hero actually have? Do they get levels (as in 1,2,3) like Knowledge, and Spell Power from previous games? How do they affect what skills you have? For example, if you have Scouting as a primary skill, then does it mean at higher levels you get tactics, extra vision, pathfinding skills, etc.. Or does it just mean you unlock some extra secondary skills? Can any hero have any primary skill? Without Attack, Defense, Knowledge and Power, how are heroes distinguished from one another? Can you recruit any type of hero in any town? And without the 4 older primary skills, what sort of bonuses will heroes confer onto other troops in battle?
One thing I found annoying in older games is that with 8 secondary skills I always had to make choices between 2 skills I didn't want, and I would in effect miss out on the things I did want, such as Pathfinding and Logistics for every hero. Will the new skills system address this?
Are they trying to make games last longer? I've noticed it's harder to win battles without losses now, and with an annoying fog of war (scouting is hard to maintain in a turn based game), it's harder to keep track of enemy heroes and you have to spend more time wiping them out. I personally think the pacing in this kind of game is too slow already for multiplayer. This makes it even worse. What is being done to prevent that from being the case?
Can you still pick up free resources on the ground, say a pile of 6 sulfur?
How do caravans work? Do they have to move in order to ferry troops to the heroes? Do they have mega huge movement, or do they just act as portable containers for units (in other words, fetch heroes)?
Where can I find some unit statistics? I heard Titans are looking very promising.. Are the units going to be balanced though? I hope the choice between Angels and Crusaders wont be as one sided as past impressions would make it seem..
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Dragonhunter
Adventuring Hero
Anybody got a Band-aid
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posted September 28, 2001 01:29 PM |
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Yes, Yes, No, No, Yes, Maybe?
Just kidding. If you check out some of the new pics,(not sure of the site name) you do see resources lying around, but I think they will be more scrace.
I'll let some of the "Wiser" posties answer some of the other questions.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted September 28, 2001 01:47 PM |
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I know there are 9 primary skills. How many can each hero actually have?
5
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Do they get levels (as in 1,2,3) like Knowledge, and Spell Power from previous games?
The numerical scores for Attack, Defence, Spellpower and Knowledge is gone. There will probably be soemthing similar for Knowledge since the Heroes will still have a mana pool.
Both Heroes and creatures will have numberical values for damage, hitpoints, luck, morale, mana, movement (2 parameters in combat: one to decide order to act the other to decide how far you can move). And perhaps a few things more, but this is what comes to mind.
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How do they affect what skills you have?
They don't. It is the secondary skills that will affect the numercial values, not the other way around.
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For example, if you have Scouting as a primary skill, then does it mean at higher levels you get tactics, extra vision, pathfinding skills, etc.. Or does it just mean you unlock some extra secondary skills?
It means two things:
1. Scouting (and the other Primary skills) gives a bonus of their own.
2. It opens up the secondary skills. It also so that to get the higher levels of scouting, you will need certain levels of the secondary skills you opened up.
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Can any hero have any primary skill?
The only exception I've seen is that Barbarians can't learn magic primary skills. There could be other restrictions.
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Without Attack, Defense, Knowledge and Power, how are heroes distinguished from one another?
Since when did these parameters distinguish heroes? What distinguish Heroes is the Hero class. The number of Hero classes will increase in Heroes 4. If you want numerical rankings, then see the list above. Heroes will now have similar stats to creatures and creatures to Heroes.
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Can you recruit any type of hero in any town?
No. Only the Stronghold can recruit any Hero type/class. We don't know for the other towns. For the other towns they will likely be able to recruit at least 2 hero types, but this number can also be 4 or 6. We don't have this information.
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And without the 4 older primary skills, what sort of bonuses will heroes confer onto other troops in battle?
The Tactics skill and its secondary skill confers bonuses to troops that are within the command radius of the Hero. (The level of tactics sets this radius. Offence increases damage by 100%, Defence reduces damage by 50%)
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One thing I found annoying in older games is that with 8 secondary skills I always had to make choices between 2 skills I didn't want, and I would in effect miss out on the things I did want, such as Pathfinding and Logistics for every hero. Will the new skills system address this?
You have a similar limitation in Heroes 4. You can only pick 5 out of 9 Primary skills. On the other hand, you can't reasonably hope to develope more than 5 skills fully so maxing out will probably not be a problem.
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Are they trying to make games last longer? I've noticed it's harder to win battles without losses now, and with an annoying fog of war (scouting is hard to maintain in a turn based game), it's harder to keep track of enemy heroes and you have to spend more time wiping them out.
True. I don't know how this one is solved.
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I personally think the pacing in this kind of game is too slow already for multiplayer. This makes it even worse. What is being done to prevent that from being the case?
Spells like 'View Heroes' would be one way to get to terms with the problem, assuming that this negates the Stealth ability (at least within a certain radius). It would have to cost more than 'View Air' does in Heroes 3 or it would make Stealth pretty much useless.
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Can you still pick up free resources on the ground, say a pile of 6 sulfur?
Yes.
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How do caravans work? Do they have to move in order to ferry troops to the heroes? Do they have mega huge movement, or do they just act as portable containers for units (in other words, fetch heroes)?
The creatures in the caravan disappear and then appear in the target city at the appropriate time. We don't know the details for the caravan. What will for instance happen if the enemy captures the town before the creatures arrive?
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Where can I find some unit statistics? I heard Titans are looking very promising.. Are the units going to be balanced though? I hope the choice between Angels and Crusaders wont be as one sided as past impressions would make it seem..
The statistics are spread out all over the forum. There are some in the Heroes 4 Beta!!!!! thread.
I'm not sure that the unit options in the town will be 100% balanced, especially not for the highest level. Instead I'd tend to believe that some creatures will have a deterring cost.
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Dragonhunter
Adventuring Hero
Anybody got a Band-aid
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posted September 28, 2001 01:56 PM |
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See, "Wiser"
Even the Gnolls are more knowlegdeable than I. How depressing.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2001 02:01 PM |
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Edited By: Jenova on 28 Sep 2001
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Thanks Djive.
I have another question about primary skills though.. So heroes do not start with 5 primary skills already chosen do they? Do you choose them at level up? Is it an actual choice, or do the skills the heroes has/gets depend on the actual hero type?
I notice the 11 starting heroes can branch into up to 37 more advanced heroes.. Is this merely a name change to reflect that you have chosen a certain combination of skills, or do you actually get unique bonuses you wouldn't normally get if you didn't pick those skills? For instance, a Mage who chooses certain skills and becomes an Archmage. Is this name change purely cosmetic, or does s/he gain some skills you didn't select?
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Since when did these parameters distinguish heroes? What distinguish Heroes is the Hero class. The number of Hero classes will increase in Heroes 4. If you want numerical rankings, then see the list above. Heroes will now have similar stats to creatures and creatures to Heroes.
It's been a while since I've played any Heroes game, but as far as I recall, the only role heroes had in battle (besides spellcasting) was conferring stat bonuses to units from their primary skills (and some secondary skills). Different hero types were distinguished by their primary skill advancement. Warlocks had the highest spell power in Heroes 2, Barbs had the highest Attack. In H3 they gave each hero a unique ability/skill. So then.. how does this hero class thing work in H4? Since having a Barbarian hero in battle doesn't give my troops any more damage bonuses (from primary skills) than having a Mage, how do the primary skills distinguish a hero?
EDIT: One more question. Do all units hurt in battle (not fallen) get healed to full health at the end of battle? If not, what are some fast ways to heal them (for free)?
EDIT2: And since there are only 4 primary skills apart from the 5 schools of magic, that's enough to have all 4 skills and 1 school of magic. Wouldn't a lot of heroes tend to be very similar (all of them having Leadership, Scouting, and the other two which I've forgotten plus one school of magic)?
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NKW
Hired Hero
Tatalian Guard of Honor
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posted September 28, 2001 02:27 PM |
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In towns other than stronghold you'll be able to recruit the two heroes of your own alignement the two heroes of each of your towns neighbouring towns (for example: order is 'allied' with life and death) and a barbarian. So you can recruit a total of 7 different heroes in every magic town.
Barbarians will be better fighters(heroes can now fight!), their primary skills will enhance their damage in combat (secondary skills of combat will increase hit points, enhance magic resistance and give them the ability of a ranged attack). Wizards will be more vulnerable in combat (less if no magic resistance, lower hit points), but they'll have their magic.
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"What actually transpires beneath the veil of an event horizon?
Decent people shouldn't think too much about that."
--Provost Zaharov, Adress to the Faculty
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2001 03:51 PM |
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Edited By: Jenova on 28 Sep 2001
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Oops.. That was silly of me. I should have thought of that. 
Can a Barb hero go toe-to-toe against a Black Dragon? Why are their (B. Dragon) stats so off-scale? (i.e. why are they so much more powerful than other lev 4s?)
Also, I realize that Leadership doesn't give you an extra turn anymore, it just allows you to have your turn earlier in battle. From my past experience with the CPU I find this to be a minus, because in Heroes 3, whenever I had earlier turns I would always "Wait" so that the CPU would move first and walk towards me so he can be in range for me to hit his units. If I was to go first, I would end up walking half way accross the screen, just in range for him to attack. I would probably end up using "Wait" more often if I had high morale. And since the retaliation is at the same time as the attack, it's not all that important to attack first anyway, even if they were already in range.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted September 28, 2001 04:25 PM |
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I have another question about primary skills though.. So heroes do not start with 5 primary skills already chosen do they? Do you choose them at level up? Is it an actual choice, or do the skills the heroes has/gets depend on the actual hero type?
Each hero start with one Primary skill, and one secondary skill belonging to this Primary skill. For the Barbarian the Secondary is Advanced for all other classes it is Basic level.
Heroes of the same type start out alike. So all Barbarians start with the same skills. This is like Heroes 2.
You choose them at level up. See the "Pic" thread on the Altar of Wishes forum. There's one image of level up. You get three choices one of which is a Primary skill you don't have. This Primary skill is selected based on the Primary skills you already have selected, and probably to some extent: on Hero type.
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I notice the 11 starting heroes can branch into up to 37 more advanced heroes.. Is this merely a name change to reflect that you have chosen a certain combination of skills, or do you actually get unique bonuses you wouldn't normally get if you didn't pick those skills?
From the interviews, I'd guess it's merely a name. It could have some effects on the game though. Personally, I'd like to see it affect the amount of mana, damage and HP you get at level up. Don't expect anything earth-shattering here.
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Different hero types were distinguished by their primary skill advancement.
That was what I meant. The class decided the distribution of the values for Attack etcetera. In Heroes 4, this is done by the Primary skill Tactics and its secondaries which affect the creatures within the command radius. Heroes who don't have Tactics skill will not give their creatures any bonuses in Heroes 4.
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In H3 they gave each hero a unique ability/skill.
This is gone in heroes 4.
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how does this hero class thing work in H4? Since having a Barbarian hero in battle doesn't give my troops any more damage bonuses (from primary skills) than having a Mage, how do the primary skills distinguish a hero?
Tactics give the Hero the ability to influence the troops as said above.
Combat and its secondaries only affects the Hero's values only.
The magic skill are now combined with Wisdom. That is, most spells are specific to a magic school, and you need the appropriate level of that particular school to learn and cast the spell.
This means that you no longer can make your Halberdiers work as 'Archangels' by placing them under a Hero with 20 Attack and 20 Defence. You can increase damage inflicted by maximum 100% and damage taken by maximum 50%, but that is all. (As far as I know). This is actually a VERY GOOD thing IMHO.
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EDIT: One more question. Do all units hurt in battle (not fallen) get healed to full health at the end of battle? If not, what are some fast ways to heal them (for free)?
Creatures probably do. Heroes is still an open question.
Healing for free? Spend a night in a town. Possible there will also be map locations you can visit. Though, don't count on Healing being for free in this case.
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EDIT2: And since there are only 4 primary skills apart from the 5 schools of magic, that's enough to have all 4 skills and 1 school of magic. Wouldn't a lot of heroes tend to be very similar (all of them having Leadership, Scouting, and the other two which I've forgotten plus one school of magic)?
Perhaps. But the magic schools will be a lot less diverse than in Heroes 3. So having more than one school will probably make a lot more sense in Heroe IV. And even in Heroes III, 2 or 3 schools made sense.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2001 05:13 PM |
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Are heroes typically faster than normal units? i.e. do they get their turn before most units? Do they vary in speed?
Is it more worthwhile having one barbarian or a stack of 10 black dragons?
If you have a prison and defeat a hero, you have a choice of leaving them dead there, or imprisoning them.. How is this even a choice? What is the advantage in just leaving them, making them available for rehire, over imprisoning them?
When you get presented with the skills selection upon level up, is there an option to reject both choices? If you're faced with a decision between Basic Eagle Eye and Basic Mysticism, believe me, you'll know what I mean.
Since retaliations happen simultaneously with attacks, doesn't it make it VERY difficult for low level units (level 1s) to keep their numbers?
If you attack a ranged unit with another ranged unit, is there a retaliation?
Is it still only one retaliation per round (with the exception of griffins)?
How do you get negative luck, other than by raiding tombs you've already raided?
Are the towns actually balanced, or is it like Heroes 2 (and to some extent Heroes 3), where the balance isn't in units but in cost? Barbs and Knights had crappy units but they were easier to get and cheaper than Warlocks and Wizards. Necros and Sorcs had the middle ground. Does H4 follow this tradition or does it try to have an overall balance?
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Wyvern
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2001 05:32 PM |
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I will answer some of the questions because the answers of the others we will know after the game is released:
If you have a prison and you don't imprison an enemy hero, his remains will still be on the map so the enemy will have to go to the remains to resurrect that hero.
There IS a retaliation when you attack a ranged unit with another ranged unit.
When you make a level, you will have to choose not between two but between THREE skills. The first is an improvement of a skill that you already have, the second is a new Primary skill and the third - a new Secondary skill. I think you will like at least one of the three!
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted September 28, 2001 05:34 PM |
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wow there lass... take it easy...
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Are heroes typically faster than normal units? i.e. do they get their turn before most units? Do they vary in speed?
...dunno, but I guess all heroes have the same speed..
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Is it more worthwhile having one barbarian or a stack of 10 black dragons?
it is said that heroes have high HP count... maybe a hero is worth 10 blackies...
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If you have a prison and defeat a hero, you have a choice of leaving them dead there, or imprisoning them.. How is this even a choice? What is the advantage in just leaving them, making them available for rehire, over imprisoning them?
when you defeat a hero you can imprison him/her... then you either hire him, leave there to die or maybe exchange him/her for ransom (?)...
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When you get presented with the skills selection upon level up, is there an option to reject both choices? If you're faced with a decision between Basic Eagle Eye and Basic Mysticism, believe me, you'll know what I mean.
...yes I know what you mean... I dunno, but I really hope you can...
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Since retaliations happen simultaneously with attacks, doesn't it make it VERY difficult for low level units (level 1s) to keep their numbers?
on the contrary... it will make low level creatures even more valuable...
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If you attack a ranged unit with another ranged unit, is there a retaliation?
hm... good question... maybe
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Is it still only one retaliation per round (with the exception of griffins)?
the griffins are not in HoMM4 but I think that, specials apart, only one retaliation will be available...
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How do you get negative luck, other than by raiding tombs you've already raided?
some buildings, events or even artifacts (?) should do the trick...
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Are the towns actually balanced, or is it like Heroes 2 (and to some extent Heroes 3), where the balance isn't in units but in cost? Barbs and Knights had crappy units but they were easier to get and cheaper than Warlocks and Wizards. Necros and Sorcs had the middle ground. Does H4 follow this tradition or does it try to have an overall balance?
I think they went for the "overall balance" thing...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted September 28, 2001 05:47 PM |
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If you have a prison and defeat a hero, you have a choice of leaving them dead there, or imprisoning them.. How is this even a choice? What is the advantage in just leaving them, making them available for rehire, over imprisoning them?
It's a choice. First of all, if you have no prison. You have to leave the hero behind.
If it's a low-level hero in the the late game, then why occupy a prison slot with this hero?
If you take the Hero prison, you may have the opponent's main hero at your main town in two turns? Really want to risk that? If you let the Hero remain then chances are that the opponent will concentrate on other targets.
If the place is far from everthing (say on an island), then better to leave the dead hero there. The opponent must take the dead hero to a town or sanctuary to ressurrect him/her, that will take some time.
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When you get presented with the skills selection upon level up, is there an option to reject both choices? If you're faced with a decision between Basic Eagle Eye and Basic Mysticism, believe me, you'll know what I mean.
The only thing you REALLY choose in heroes 4 is the Primary skills. You only make this pick FOUR times for each Hero (you have one primary skill when you start), and each time you have two other choices to make.
In heroes 4 I'd say that you would NEVER want to turn down a skill.
Besides, Mysticism is not all that bad. In the last AB scenario for Dracon, I wish that I have it every time. There's no full mana regeneration on that map.
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Since retaliations happen simultaneously with attacks, doesn't it make it VERY difficult for low level units (level 1s) to keep their numbers?
This applies to every unit. I'd say the fastest units are worst off since they make the first attack. The subsequent attacks are still not retaliated against.
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If you attack a ranged unit with another ranged unit, is there a retaliation?
Yes. I believe I saw this in one of the itnerviews.
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Is it still only one retaliation per round (with the exception of griffins)?
I very much hope so. We haven't seen any Griffins in Heroes 4 yet. They may be gone.
For the balance, I'd believe it's a balance in costs.
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted September 28, 2001 06:06 PM |
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Is it more worthwhile having one barbarian or a stack of 10 black dragons?
Maybe for a barbarian of a very high level, but I can't imagine that a low level hero can be as good as 10 black dragons. I mean, hire a hero and suddenly you have an army equalling 10 black dragons?!
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You can have as many hit points as you care,
you're dead when facing the Mighty Stare!
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted September 28, 2001 10:18 PM |
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Heroes...
...are very important for one other reason. If a heroless army meets a force that is too strong for them, they may run away, or, even more disastrously, join the enemy if an enemy hero has Diplomacy or Charm (secondary skills of Nobility and Order Magic, if I remember right). So it is a good idea to keep a hero with your main armies at all times. Also, with 7 slots and only 5 creatures from your main town (you get both level 1 troops and have to choose between the two for each of the other 3 levels), you may even want two heroes just to fill the slots. I plan on developing one strong magic hero and one strong might hero for the armies (except possibly in Stronghold where they have no magic - I might go for twin Barbarians).
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted September 29, 2001 05:13 AM |
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That clears things up.. Just a few more..
Is the "Wait" command in battle still available? I think I will end up waiting for the tougher stacks to have used up their retaliation, and then attack them with my more precious/fragile units to minimize losses.
Also, about Heroes becoming one of 37 new sub classes, do their appearances change?
Is it ever possible at all to hire a fallen hero you've defeated? What can you do with a prison other than hold a captured hero? Can you recruit them for yourself? Do heroes still drop all their artifacts when defeated? Suppose you imprisoned one of their heroes, and the enemy comes back to grab him/her, if successful will they recover all their artifacts?
If you have multiple heroes in a battle, will they each get the full HP or is it shared amongst them all? Is XP still equal to the total amount of HP lost by the losing side?
I noticed in battle, units no longer have to be facing one of two directions. Does this have any effect in combat?
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted September 29, 2001 05:32 AM |
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...here we go again...
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Is the "Wait" command in battle still available? I think I will end up waiting for the tougher stacks to have used up their retaliation, and then attack them with my more precious/fragile units to minimize losses.
waiting is a big part of battle strategy... my guess is it's still there...
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Also, about Heroes becoming one of 37 new sub classes, do their appearances change?
haven't read anything to prove or deny such a thing but I hope they do...
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Is it ever possible at all to hire a fallen hero you've defeated? What can you do with a prison other than hold a captured hero? Can you recruit them for yourself? Do heroes still drop all their artifacts when defeated? Suppose you imprisoned one of their heroes, and the enemy comes back to grab him/her, if successful will they recover all their artifacts?
read my previous post... as for artifacts, loots of war...
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If you have multiple heroes in a battle, will they each get the full HP or is it shared amongst them all? Is XP still equal to the total amount of HP lost by the losing side?
conserning HP I think each hero is unique... XP, on the other hand, might be distributed among heroes equally or in regard to how much they helped in battle...
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I noticed in battle, units no longer have to be facing one of two directions. Does this have any effect in combat?
nah... don't think you will be able to "backstab" a creature... it's just a change in graphics...
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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