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| Thread: Is there good and evil in Heroes 5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 17, 2007 10:30 PM |
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Well that is the thing, they are subjective conseptions, they are defined by time and place. "Such things as please us, we denominate good, those which displease us, evil."
There are several parts of good that does not "please me." I am not "pleased" that the road to good is narrow and that many will not find it. What is good is good completely apart from what pleases me or anyone else. And what is evil is evil again regardless of what is displeasing to me or anyone else. If it pleases you to needless murder an innocent farmer and his family, is that good? What is a whole society was pleased by murdering innocent farmers and their family, would that then be good? No, even an entire society can be wrong. That doesn't "please me" but its not about me or my society.
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Evil is an ultimatum. Therefore it is suitable to conseptions as Devil or the sort. When speaking of humans, it has no merit. Humans are complex in nature and cannot be defined by such ultimate words. It is better to speak about ethics and morality.
Please clarify what you mean, "Evil is an ultimatum." I'm not sure you are using the would ultimatum correctly. My guess is that you mean it is an ultimate extreme. If that is the case, then so is good. And it is discussable as it relates to humans, though it will not likely be expressed in a pure form (same as good) people can move toward one or the other. Besides good and evil are part of the discussion of ethics and morality. Saying ethical as opposed to good is merely semantics.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 17, 2007 10:52 PM |
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Well, actually, imo good and evil are defined by society.
In ancient days killing was not an amoral thing to do, I'm not saying it was a good thing (maybe it was I don't know), but in certain societies it certainly wasn't evil.
After the Jews introduced their moral code and religious beliefs to the world and after the Christians added a bit more and spread it everywhere the concepts of good and evil became more or less the same everywhere and that's basically what we have now.
Except that now people are less affected by religion, and many people, for instance, don't think it is wrong to lie, cheat and trumple the weak to get ahead in life, because that is how the world is built nowadays.
So, in conclusion, if you're in Rome - act like a Roman, if you're on Earth - act like an Earther, if you're in Ashan - then I'm controlling your life and will probably kill you off in the next battle .
Geny ... I'm your #1 fan.
Eh - but to put something on the topic. Good and Evil excist in the game, as well as in real world - it just doesn't make any sense to consider it in absolute terms. No-one is 100 % good. Probably no-one is 100 % evil either. And your definition of good and evil is probably dependant on your cultural background. Still, there is good and evil in the world, and in the game as well - as, Sylvan and Haven tends towards good, whereas Inferno and Necropolis tends towards evil. The campaign characters just show that specific persons can deviate from the general trend of a faction.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 17, 2007 10:55 PM |
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well put.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 17, 2007 11:03 PM |
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this is my view of Ashan: that factions range from Rather good to absolute evil. I extended them closer/farther away from Law/Chaos to show how closely they adhere to it.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 17, 2007 11:08 PM |
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necro are a bit more evil, and sylvan are not so chaos like, try haven, maybe, renegades?
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 18, 2007 03:27 PM |
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Really if you look at Ashan's creation legend, you can get a better idea of how they probably view good and evil. They describe two dragon's being born from the cosmic egg. I can't recall all the details and names, it is posted somewhere. Anyways the good dragon created the world and 7 other dragons to rule it. Those 7 lesser dragons were worshipped by the different factions all being different sides of the good creating dragon. The only faction not created my the good dragon is the demonic faction, which was created by the evil dragon. So in Ashan although there is likely hatred and political dislike between the factions, their mythology suggests on the demons are evil are all other's are different shades of good. However they do seem to fit nicely in a DD Good/Evil and Law/Order continuum.
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted January 18, 2007 05:39 PM |
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The camapign shows that there are alliances crossing the old "good and evil" concept. The "good" Agrael - in love, was the most surprising element.
Regarding the scheme above, I must comment the law-chaos axis:
Like in AD&D, devils and their kin are very lawful, so lawful evil could apply. Darkelves may be more of the chaotic ones, and Necros are pretty neutral (evil)
The elves have often been considered chaotic good.
But accordig to how they act in the game they may be more similar to the scheme.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 18, 2007 05:50 PM |
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dark eye, your basically suggesting that a race that was created by the god of chaos, worships the god of chaos and wants to get rid of the dragon of order is evil order???
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 18, 2007 05:56 PM |
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The camapign shows that there are alliances crossing the old "good and evil" concept. The "good" Agrael - in love, was the most surprising element.
Regarding the scheme above, I must comment the law-chaos axis:
Like in AD&D, devils and their kin are very lawful, so lawful evil could apply. Darkelves may be more of the chaotic ones, and Necros are pretty neutral (evil)
Not as much surprising as it was distasteful...Isabel?? I preferred his grim independent self when he was a demon lord. And btw why was there any surprise? From the first cutscene in the trap he seemed not to have much in common with his infernal allies and even offered Isabel a way to escape.
Devils lawful? They were created by Urgash the god of chaos and apart from the Sovereign ALL I have seen ingame act in a chaotic way.
Also the dark elves seem to be in clans, respecting their clanlord and having a strict hierarchy with the matriarchs on top. Also the way the y obey the dragon of darkness doesn't resemble at all Lolth's chaotic ways.
And I agree about the necromancers.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 18, 2007 07:17 PM |
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I definitely agree with Elvin that Nival have turned the normal D&D picture upside down in their approach by making the Devils the ultimate representants of Chaos, whereas the Darkelf society is very Lawfull.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted January 18, 2007 07:36 PM |
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I'll say it again:
We all know the new race in the next addon - the orgs.
We need fourth evil race, and +1 might evil hero --->>> the org hero.
The table after H5 2 Addon:
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 18, 2007 08:16 PM |
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Edited by Ted at 20:17, 18 Jan 2007.
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first, you mist out necro
second, didnt we say that dungeon was a lawful side, rather than chaos, or did i miss something?
third, academy? chaos? i thought they were lawful and had a just legal system
others are good, Inferno, most evil faction ever
EDIT
found necro, and their not very lawful
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 18, 2007 08:16 PM |
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I am not so sure Dungeon is lawful. They are divided into clans and fight each other constantly.
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Dungeon society is built around secrecy, plots, betrayal, and occultism.
None of these sound lawful at all.
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In peace time, the Dark Elves use their very particular skills against other Dark Elf cities, to strengthen their own clans. But in war time, all these skills dedicated to murder and plots are turned on the common enemy
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 18, 2007 08:18 PM |
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the last one did, they put aside all other matters for the greater good, thats lawful
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted January 18, 2007 08:22 PM |
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second, didnt we say that dungeon was a lawful side, rather than chaos, or did i miss something?
dungeon is chaos race!
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third, academy? chaos? i thought they were lawful and had a just legal system
Ooooops sorry here sylvan is chaos and academy lawful sorry...
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found necro, and their not very lawful
necro are lawful
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 18, 2007 08:32 PM |
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dungeon are lawful, they have dimcarcy, King at the top, then it goes down till the very bottom with slaves, but still,
and necro lawful, how? they are just a mindless (skellies: no brain, zombies: lost brain) undead things, the only thing with a brain in Necro are the vampires (yes Vokial has a brain) and thats it
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 18, 2007 08:39 PM |
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dungeon are lawful, they have dimcarcy, King at the top, then it goes down till the very bottom with slaves, but still,
i think you mean queen.
but anyway.
Dungeon, i don't think of as lawful. they are clan based, so in some ways they are, and in some ways they aren't. they are only as chaotic as dwarves, who run on a similar system.
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and necro lawful, how? they are just a mindless (skellies: no brain, zombies: lost brain) undead things, the only thing with a brain in Necro are the vampires (yes Vokial has a brain) and thats it
they are all controlled by a single mind!
so in that way, it is the ultimate slavery, and the ultimate order in that respect! they are probably even more controlling than Academy, as they want to control everyone and everything in existance. Nercopolis is full of power hunger Control freaks!
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 18, 2007 08:44 PM |
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one mid eh? well now i know how to destroy Necro, kill their brain being, and all the troops get sluarted,
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 18, 2007 08:45 PM |
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I still hold Dungeon is lawful, albeit evil. Why else would they have a keeper of the law?
Anyway, found it kinda funny that you placed Orc as the epitome of absolute lawfulness?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 18, 2007 09:49 PM |
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Geny ... I'm your #1 fan.
Hehe, in that case I think we may be the first two people in the world who are fans of each other .
Now back on topic...
Let's analize it faction by faction:
Haven: first of all they are lawful, no arguements here. Despite some of the not-so-good deeds of Queen Isabel they are probably good - they are not seeking world domination and from some of the dialogues I understood that they value alliances greatly and will gladly help allies in need. Also they are fanatic in their fight against evil.
Inferno: chaotic evil, not much to explain - a bunch of crazy creatures hating everything and everyone.
Necro: evil - planning world domination. Lawful - for the same reason, they want to rule the world in an lawful and orderly way, not destroy it or something like that.
Dungeon: that's a hard one... lawful, because of the very strict order in clans (keeper of law, clanlord, traditional clanlord competition). Probably neutral, because it seems they just want to live in peace away from the elves and other enemies.
Sylvan: probably good (but not too good), because they seem to want to help others, you can see it when Findan sets to try and save the world after succesfully defending his own country. I'm not too sure about chaos-lawfulness... I'd say lawful, because of the way they "worship" tradition and honor.
Academy: probably the closest thing to true neutral - flying high in the sky doing their researches, minding their own buisness. Although maybe they are more lawful then neutral, but I'm not sure here.
Fortress - didn't play, don't know.
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