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Doomforge
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posted February 20, 2013 05:35 PM |
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Modelling doesn't require any work.
Crap.
Define "work" in that regard.
I find work to be anything you need effort for.
Which hiking around in your underwear certainly is not.
And please, don't start with the "no social life, super rigoristic diet" bull. People fit for modelling don't need to torture themselves. The genes do most. Following a diet is all they really need to do, and that's something most of the globe does for free.
I find it crazy that some people here find "not getting obese" some kind of task that's worth paying them five-digit sums for.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 20, 2013 05:51 PM |
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I thought this thread was about minimum wages?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Zenofex
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posted February 20, 2013 05:54 PM |
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Of course, the feats of mind are less considered than what produces audience, therefore money. Why: because very few can appreciate/understand them.
That's true and that's one of the many places where the rationality - which is still a cornerstone of key economic theories - fails miserably. A model does nothing for the society no matter how famous he/she is (there are many beautiful women/men who are not models so if you're starving aesthetically, you don't necessarily need to turn on your TV on the fashion channel - go out for instance) while a professional in a productive field of the economy creates or helps for the creation of the things that sustain, govern and interconnect the members of the society. It's completely rational that if you produce more, you earn more - but that's now what actually happens. This is one of the things that can be influenced externally though - the state can easily boost the payments in the productive fields of the economy and lower them where the huge wages do not correspond to the actual contribution. Given time, people will lean toward the better payments and it may ultimately result in less Cristiano Ronaldos and more Stephen Hawkinses (nor necessarily with the chair).
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Doomforge
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posted February 20, 2013 06:20 PM |
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I find a simple relation to the minimal wage: enforced justice. Why is nature-originating unfairnes OK, but human-originating attempts to straighten things up "unfair" ?
I find minimal wage to be extremely useful for countries like mine. It saves some dignity of young, highly educated people.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 20, 2013 06:28 PM |
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Why is nature-originating unfairnes OK, but human-originating attempts to straighten things up "unfair" ?
I don't like speaking in terms of fair and unfair, but in understanding the spirit of what you're asking, the reason is because the latter are costly, inefficient, and - ultimately - deleterious to society as a whole.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Doomforge
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posted February 20, 2013 06:33 PM |
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I'm still glad they are around - I mean, I would earn even less if they weren't.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
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posted February 20, 2013 06:34 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
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Modelling doesn't require any work.
Crap.
Define "work" in that regard.
I find work to be anything you need effort for.
Which hiking around in your underwear certainly is not.
And please, don't start with the "no social life, super rigoristic diet" bull. People fit for modelling don't need to torture themselves. The genes do most. Following a diet is all they really need to do, and that's something most of the globe does for free.
I find it crazy that some people here find "not getting obese" some kind of task that's worth paying them five-digit sums for.
You talk about "labour" not work.
1) How would YOU know what is laborous for others, because it's totally subjective. Also
2) "Having ideas" isn't work either. It just goes "bang" and you have something like "Just do it" and earn a fortune. Work?
Generally, this is COMPUTER GAMING board. Don't tell me, anyone here, that this is rational and productive - it's pure entertainment, and entertainment is important, once a society has spare resources.
Generally, Doomforge, you remind me of the "Money for nothing" song - you are just willfully ignorant and probnably just envious.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted February 20, 2013 07:05 PM |
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Mytical:
People's wages are fundamentally set by how productive they are. Chinese workers are poor because they're not as productive as workers in Western countries, not because of minimum wage laws.
If the OSM enforced not trolling rules, this would be ban worth. Seriously. Either he is leaving out 2 pages of sematics AND misapplying the term "productive", or he is just posting bait. Elodin is in group 1, mvass we don't know.
So: Post the sematics.
Xerox
Quote:
Question: Consider this scenario. The minimum wage in Sweden is 2750$/month. Long-term unemployed people get 1200$/month, including rent, from wellfare. If the minimum wage is abolished, would wellfare prevent wages from going below 1200$/month?
Sweden still has people working for 1200 a month by working less than 100%. Secondly, Norway has no minimum wages, and oddly enough you only see immigrants getting paid below entry level wages.
Now, if a extended low economic conjuncture^1 keeps on harping on Sweden, employers might get willing to pay people less than the welfare provider for a full time job, or at the least try to.
Xerox, again: On Page 2 you use the word "socioeconomically beneficial". I know that you have been a part of a education system where this is a common word, and that its rarely mention what it actually mean, but the word itself is literally limited to Scandinavia in extension of how many know what it is. I know that you know what it means, but others don't.
As you mention on page 3, if there is a correlation between poverty and crime, society would benefit from less poverty to solve the problem of present crime. This assumes that crime hurts other citizens, and not just pokes the over class marginally. So the socioeconomically good solution would be to make sure people do not become poor, somehow, in a way that benefits the poor.
Socioeconomically thinking don't really have anything to do with economy, but it has attached itself to the word, and there is even a economic school of thought on it.
The thinking generally focuses on the under and middle class, as opposed to raw capitalism which ideally focuses on the opportunistic, or Kenynes school which focuses on the economy and how to avoid a specific problem.
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Doomforge
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posted February 20, 2013 07:25 PM |
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Generally, Doomforge, you remind me of the "Money for nothing" song - you are just willfully ignorant and probnably just envious.
Of course. I want money for nothing, hence I work 50h per week for 200$.
Care to trade?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
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posted February 20, 2013 07:37 PM |
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Would only be a point, if you did it GLADLY.
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Salamandre
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posted February 20, 2013 07:43 PM |
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Doomforge, you are young, move out. There are plenty of polish here, in Germany, in US. If you can do a correct job, there will always be a place. If you can't you will still receive 500$ just for breathing.
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Zenofex
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posted February 20, 2013 07:59 PM |
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... and then the same supporters of the free market who frown upon the minimum wage start crying to their government that there are too many foreigners (who are in general also uncultured, uneducated and unwashed) coming from battered-down countries willing to work for less than even the most desperate locals. Funny stuff.
Not talking about France.
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xerox
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posted February 20, 2013 08:02 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:03, 20 Feb 2013.
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I don't like that the whole "Should states compensate for people with bad backgrounds" discussion has degenerated into discussing how much models are worth to society. Does it matter?
I also support DF moving out of Poland. Come on, there's free migration within the EU. What's stopping you?
I've never heard of a free market supporter complaining about foreigners taking low wage jobs. I see it as something very positive.
dd: Yeah, I was talking about full-time jobs. But the "minimum wage" (there actually isn't a legalized minimum wage but it still exists in practice) works with part-time jobs too though. The reason norwegians don't want to work with low wages is that those jobs are to low-status to them, and with wellfare and parents and stuff you don't really have a need to take those jobs. Swedes who come to Norway to work will take any job. 90% of employers in Sweden can't just reduce wages, they have to negotiate with unions who always demands wages to INCREASE by a few % each year.
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Salamandre
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posted February 20, 2013 08:08 PM |
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Poland is in European union, what that means really except a ratified paper? People from it should get what they voted for, move abroad, travel, find opportunities. The issue of immigration is totally different, we are crawling under the african immigration burden, while we signed no paper with and the exchanges are one way only.
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Zenofex
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posted February 20, 2013 08:10 PM |
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The borders or the EU are not exactly open yet and some countries still enforce certain quotas about the number of people from the Dark East that they are willing to accept. And other governments are under pressure to introduce such quotas. Given the volatile nature of the Union at the moment, that won't be very hard if they really want it.
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Fauch
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posted February 20, 2013 08:18 PM |
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one of my friend was a model, she worked long hours for a 4 to 5 digits income at the end of month, yes, but in roubles. and that was when the photographers even cared to pay her. it's not a dream job, she doesn't want to do it anymore.
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xerox
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posted February 20, 2013 08:26 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:28, 20 Feb 2013.
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over half of eastern europe isn't even in the EU yet
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Zenofex
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posted February 20, 2013 08:30 PM |
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Less than half. And I'm obviously talking about the part that is actually in the EU.
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xerox
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posted February 20, 2013 08:48 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:50, 20 Feb 2013.
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there's free migration between all these countries
It's interesting that the UK didn't want to participate. I don't like how they cockblock the EU in many ways. But so does France (protectionism, agricultural subsidies instead of science and growth) and even Germany when it comes to membership for Turkey.
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del_diablo
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posted February 20, 2013 09:18 PM |
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Xerox:
Quote:
dd: The reason norwegians don't want to work with low wages is that those jobs are to low-status to them, and with welfare and parents and stuff you don't really have a need to take those jobs. Swedes who come to Norway to work will take any job. 90% of employers in Sweden can't just reduce wages, they have to negotiate with unions who always demands wages to INCREASE by a few % each year.
Look at it this way: A union deals a treaty with a corporation or a corporation part of a union themselves. If a corporation is not a part of a corporate union, it has no needs to follow wage treaties, and can freely take in non union people(foreigners like Poles for instance), and ask them to work for less than union wage. This is the most common practice of paying less for the workforce.
And as far as I understand, unions work the same way in Norway as Sweden. Any major corporation is bound to the treaties it has negotiated, and can not go below them, for the most part, even when hiring non union workforce, for the most part with minor exceptions.
And as familiar Norwegians are with the term "Arbeidssvensker/Partysvensker", my only guess is that the profit of the oil industry offsets a large enough part of the normal workforce to enable such a trend. Social cultural might help it too, but its not that different from Sweden except the a 110%^2 earning advantage both ways from higher wages and currency conversion, causing Swedes to work for more money.
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This thread is pages long: 
