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| Thread: Revisiting "Free Will" | |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 08:28 PM |
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Revisiting "Free Will"
Sabine Hossenfelder is a Physicist who can explain things with few words and is very critical about mainstream physics - in short, scientifically I have a crush on her.
Here is her take on Free Will.
You may say, wait a minute, when *I* say, I agree with her, since I've been arguing in favor of free will - but what I totally agree with is that the whole question is wrong. I'd add, since there ARE quantum processes in the brain, but they fall into the interference-with-the-system category, I'd simply agree that free will is an illusion, that comes from the conscious self not knowing what conclusion will be reached before it is reached - it's basically the wrong question.
In short, because of random quantum effects the reality ISN'T deterministic, but that doesn't make the will free, because the effects are RANDOM ...
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 21, 2021 03:29 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:37, 21 May 2021.
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Just about a week ago, I was reading this. I was even going to put it in the Interesting Articles thread here but then it skipped my mind. I always love reading portraits and this one is intriguing both because the writer is skilled and Trivers is a really original character.
It’s related to the same question but from a biological perspective, to quote:
Trivers, armed, seemed to stand taller and straighter, but it might have been my imagination. To my surprise, he recalled my previous question about free will. He said Huey Newton, shortly after they met, asked if he believed in free will. “I said, ‘Well, Huey, I don’t know exactly what people mean by free will, but we certainly evolved the capacity to look at our behavior afterward and adjust it appropriately.’ He embraces me and says, ‘We don't disagree on nothin’.’”
Trivers was intrigued by experimental evidence that our brains reach decisions a second or more before our conscious minds do. “So to that degree conscious free will is an illusion, as far as we understand it.” In the split second after your brain makes a decision, your conscious mind can “nix the damn behavior.” Otherwise, our conscious control over our actions seems limited.
I replied that I was a hard-core believer in free will, even though I recognized that we have a limited ability to control our actions. Emily chimed in, saying that in some cases we are “limited by our chemistry.”
Trivers looked at her, stone-faced. “Everything is chemistry,” he drawled. “So when you say that, you're not saying much.”
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 04:01 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
since there ARE quantum processes in the brain, but they fall into the interference-with-the-system category, I'd simply agree that free will is an illusion, that comes from the conscious self not knowing what conclusion will be reached before it is reached - it's basically the wrong question.
In short, because of random quantum effects the reality ISN'T deterministic, but that doesn't make the will free, because the effects are RANDOM ...
My understanding is quantum effects (ie. Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance') means free will is not possible because there is no discernment between action and reaction, observer and the observed.
However, if you back up and look at it from a 'philosophical' view, it's not possible because what would be the point in life if you could not effect it? You could only argue it was all pre-determined, but if I don't know (and you dont know) then it's as good as unknown.
artu said:
It’s related to the same question but from a biological perspective, to quote:
Trivers was intrigued by experimental evidence that our brains reach decisions a second or more before our conscious minds do. “So to that degree conscious free will is an illusion, as far as we understand it.” In the split second after your brain makes a decision, your conscious mind can “nix the damn behavior.” Otherwise, our conscious control over our actions seems limited.
..
I replied that I was a hard-core believer in free will, even though I recognized that we have a limited ability to control our actions. Emily chimed in, saying that in some cases we are “limited by our chemistry.”
Trivers looked at her, stone-faced. “Everything is chemistry,” he drawled. “So when you say that, you're not saying much.”
No-fap. Serious.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 21, 2021 04:23 AM |
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Edited by artu at 04:26, 21 May 2021.
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Einstein was a determinist, hence his famous metaphor “God throws no dice.” I think who you mean is Heisenberg.
“What would be the point in life” is not a question about if free will exists or not, it’s a question about why we would wish it to exist.
I googled no-fap, turns out it is some social movement against masturbation. So: ???
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 05:31 AM |
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thanks for introducing her JJ, very nice video. I love people that can explain stuff like this so succinctly. will definitely watch more.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 11:25 AM |
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I love watching Sabines videos, and this was interesting also. My favorite part was "people underestimate how much their decisions are influenced by the information they are exposed to".
QFT.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 02:32 PM |
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artu said:
“What would be the point in life” is not a question about if free will exists or not, it’s a question about why we would wish it to exist.
So you don't wish it to exist? Do you have a choice? So you have made it already..?
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 21, 2021 03:02 PM |
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I think the concept is flawed. I’m not a hardcore determinist, I dont think there is only one way things can turn out, but I dont think we are that omnipotent about our effect on how things turn out either.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 03:12 PM |
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Determinism vs free will =/= omnipotence
Your original implied question I thought was to what extent we can extert our free will in the face of 'biology'.. hence, my original comment.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 21, 2021 03:24 PM |
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I am not talking about being omnipotent about the outcome of our actions or being able to fly, I am talking about being omnipotent about which choices we take, that is what free will is all about.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
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posted May 21, 2021 05:31 PM |
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omniimpotent: is that a word? if not, it should be. 
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 05:42 PM |
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You want your own word, don't you?
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fred79
Disgraceful
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posted May 21, 2021 05:53 PM |
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keep it for myself? no. it's a word i want to share with the whole world.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 21, 2021 05:56 PM |
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