|
| Thread: What really counts as OP in Homm3? | |
|
Hourglass
Supreme Hero
|
posted July 06, 2022 11:53 PM |
|
|
What really counts as OP in Homm3?
So, the word "OP" gets thrown quite easily among the community when talking about specific things in the game, which made me wonder: What is actually been seen as overpowered by the community? The point of this thread isn't about finding the most overpowered thing, (although you can obviously name it for us as well) but rather trying to list all of the overpowered things.
Here are few that I remember being called OP at some point along the way, please note that these are purely here for helping out the discussion, not claims that things on the list should necessary be called as OP in my opinion and especially the list is not here to restrict the discussion - if you have something that is not on the list, please tell us!
Towns:
Conflux, Necropolis
Heroes & Hero Specialties:
Luna, Sir Mullich, Galthran, Thant, Heroes that specialize in either Offence, Armorer, Logistics or Intelligence
Skills:
Earth Magic, Diplomacy, Logistics, Necromancy
Spells:
Slow, Town Portal, Dimension Door, Armageddon
Artifacts:
Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment, Sword of Justice, Angelic Alliance, Orb of Inhibition, Angel Wings, Cloak of the Undead King, Wizard's Well, Tome of Earth
Creatures:
Vampire Lords, Archangels, Sea Dogs
Town structures:
Skyship (Tower's Grail), Aurora Borealis (Conflux Grail), Castle's Stables, Dungeon's Mana Vortex, Dungeon's Portal of Summoning.
Map objects:
Cartographers, Mana Springs, Stables, Warrior's Tombs, Creature Banks in general, Prisons, Magic wells
Other:
Wait command, Resting in Town for mana, Easily affordable heroes
|
|
Ben80
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 07, 2022 05:34 AM |
|
|
Heroes chains.
Heroes escape from monsters and immediately appear in the tavern.
|
|
NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
|
|
posted July 07, 2022 07:47 AM |
|
Edited by NimoStar at 07:49, 07 Jul 2022.
|
Quote:
Heroes escape from monsters and immediately appear in the tavern.
Nothimng compared with H4 where heroes escape from monsters and immediately appear in the *town* ...
And recover like 80% of mana just by visiting town.
Anyways, if default game mechanics are OP, I would say hero chaining is definitely it specially comparing AI can't do it properly.
Diplomacy, of course, especially in RoE... (much more OP than necro, basically an instant "you win" skill in default maps)
***
Something nobody said:
* Cloning archangels for infinite super powerful resurrection, and also wastes enemy turn attacking them.
* Summoning elementals, really, the problem here is that you should lose combat after your last "real" troop is killed, no matter how many summons remain.
____________
Never changing = never improving
|
|
Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 07, 2022 08:26 AM |
|
|
Nothing is more OP than Expert Town Portal, especially if you have a lot of towns.
Second would probably be Cloak of the Undead King making liches. (With unnerfed Necromancy.)
If Fly and DD are allowed, DD maybe even several times a day, then I will argue that Air Magic, Tome of Air Magic and Spellbinder's Hat are also OP.
I would also like to add Shackles of War (and Armageddon's Blade and Horn of the Abyss) to the list.
Otherwise really good list.
@Nimo I agree the battles with summoned elementals should end when "real" creatures are destroyed or Summon Elemental could have duration, so they will eventually disappear automatically.
Eovacius double-cloning Sea Dogs or Archangels could also be absolutely bonkers.
|
|
baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 07, 2022 09:00 AM |
|
|
|
I think that powerfull combo artifact was planed as super bonus. Its not the same as OP! OP is eg. cloak of the undead king because its only 3 components so you have it always! If you would need 5 artifacts it would not be OP.
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted July 07, 2022 10:16 AM |
|
|
@@ Diplomacy, of course, especially in RoE.. @@
I read players jungle as a chess, I can see their planned movings in a chessboard, so I defend, counterattack, etc An example of Phoenix4ever is 2 lvl player, and Maretti, Salamandre etc are 4 lvl, when I can't know theirs invisible movings. Ok now's an odd Diplomacy in RoE? You buffed us? When it can't be 1-3 lvl.. I don't think Supreme 4 lvl, when all 2 lvl is a familiar pattern, and you have a mixed or messed, but not Diplomacy in RoE.. Remember HotA team nerfed Diplomacy..
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach
|
|
NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
|
|
posted July 08, 2022 01:40 AM |
|
Edited by NimoStar at 01:41, 08 Jul 2022.
|
In game without expansions or patches creatures never asked for money to join AFAIK.
Ryland with diplo and leadership is an hero that is very hard to counter, since leadership counters the lowering morale effects of mixing troops.
Even with money to join, remember creatures usually guard chests, artifacts and treasures. So after you bribe them you can still get the stuff they guard. Artifacts can even be sold for more money, thus more creatures.
Diplo has a "snowball" effect as it makes your army larger, thus further creatures have more chances to join you the larger it becomes.
***
IMO Diplo sould make all join since it's weird that half creatures hoin you and half fight their brothers, but should be more expensive and give XP in return (like H4 stealth gives XP when evading enemies). After all negotiating is also an "experience".
Surrender cost reduction is also excessive, should maybe be 15/25/40% instead of up to 60%
____________
Never changing = never improving
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 08, 2022 09:40 PM |
|
|
Hourglass said:
Heroes & Hero Specialties:
Luna, Sir Mullich, Galthran, Thant, Heroes that specialize in either Offence, Armorer, Logistics or Intelligence
Looking at these heroes I wonder who should and should'nt be allowed.
In HotA Sir Mullich and Galthran are (mostly) banned, but the others are allowed. I wonder if this was the right call?
There is no doubt Offense and Armorer specialists are very strong in combat, but it won't really help them gain "tempo". Logistics, Navigation and Intelligence (even Mysticism) specialists will have the real advantage when it comes to accomplishing things on the map.
So I think I would say Logistics and Intelligence specialists are OP, potentially also Navigation and Mysticism specialists depending on map.
Offense and Armorer might be considered OP in combat, but that's about it. You could add Giselle and her stupid Interference here as well.
What about Eovacius?, he is also pretty crazy.
And of course a lot of the campaign heroes, but you probably chose not to include them.
|
|
c0ldshadow
Known Hero
ig chr0meice91
|
|
posted July 09, 2022 08:30 PM |
|
|
In hero vs hero combat, it should be impossible to cast any damaging spell, and then immediately retreat if the winner has Adv Earth and Resurrection. It should always be possible to resurrect as many of your troops as possible in this situation. The logic is completely flawed. Why wouldn't a winning hero just be able to resurrect their losses after the other guy fled anyway?
the "Interference" skill is also completely silly and unfair, because magic heroes are already under powered. You cannot have Interference and all these artifacts to wipe our a heroes spell power, when it's not possible to do the same for Attack and Defense. So yeah better to just completely remove that skill and any power-reducing artifacts instead of making new skills to reduce Attack and Defense of enemy. This is one of the main things in HoTA I don't like but other than that very solid. Fix that, and add a feature to allow resurrections if a person flees after casting a damaging spell=)
____________
|
|
Hourglass
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2022 03:34 PM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
Looking at these heroes I wonder who should and should'nt be allowed.
In HotA Sir Mullich and Galthran are (mostly) banned, but the others are allowed. I wonder if this was the right call?
There is no doubt Offense and Armorer specialists are very strong in combat, but it won't really help them gain "tempo". Logistics, Navigation and Intelligence (even Mysticism) specialists will have the real advantage when it comes to accomplishing things on the map.
So I think I would say Logistics and Intelligence specialists are OP, potentially also Navigation and Mysticism specialists depending on map.
Offense and Armorer might be considered OP in combat, but that's about it. You could add Giselle and her stupid Interference here as well.
What about Eovacius?, he is also pretty crazy.
And of course a lot of the campaign heroes, but you probably chose not to include them.
Good points Phoenix!
When talking about Offence and tempo, I think the Crag Hack is pretty good even tempo-wise. The starting 4 attack skill + guaranteed lvl 2 expert Offence is quite competitive even in early game standards, as that makes no matter what the stack hit hard even in the early game. Corkes likely has some dead weight compared to Crag with his Pathfinding, and Gundula is easily the least "fast" due her inconsistance provided by the fact that she's a Battle mage. So that being said, I think Crag could be seen as OP, the other two specialists don't really match the criteria IMO, but obviously are really powerful heroes.
When switching to the Armorer specialists, I must tell that I've sort of a chart that I've created, where I've listed all the heroes. Currently speaking, Tazar and Mephala sit at the second and third place, so it goes without saying that I do think these heroes are really, really good. The big part of this reason is their capability to hit Earth magic on lvl 4 on a consistent rate (Beastmasters hit Earth on a 50% rate, which is the best possible among the might heroes, and while Rangers don't quite match that, they also have really good chances of getting Earth at the same level)
That being said, while Armorer itself doesn't necessary turn them into tempo machines, the game kinda hands them the access to the most powerful skill of Earth. They can start mass slowing their enemies on a very low level, and that if nothing else gives them a lot of tempo.
Neela clearly draws the shortest stick among the Armorer specialists. She's an Alchemist, which don't necessary end of being able to build a good set of skills, and she also starts with Scholar, which is a great skill for secondary heroes, but kinda ends up being dead weight if you're willing to use Neela as a main. Obviously, we're still talking about a powerful hero nonetheless.
In competitive environment, where maps are random, the Mysticism specialty ends up being quite poor actually. I could see a scenario map where Mysticism and the specialty especially could be OP, thou. Intelligence specialty on the other in SoD is really powerful, the amount of firepower allowed by a huge mana pool is really strong. In Hota, the nerf was quite considerable, and they're obviously not that strong anymore, but still very capable anyway.
Eovacius is also very strong hero, I just wasn't sure if I've ever heard anybody calling him OP, so I didn't include him on the list. I don't personally see him as OP, as he doesn't have a very noticeable tempo advantage. Clone trick can be done in one battle, and then it's required to gain back mana in order to continue.
c0ldshadow said:
In hero vs hero combat, it should be impossible to cast any damaging spell, and then immediately retreat if the winner has Adv Earth and Resurrection.
The method you're talking about is being called hit and running, and there's already a fix for this: enable Tournament rules before starting the map, and it becomes impossible to cast a spell and flee during the first round in combat, if you were the one who attacked.
|
|
NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
|
|
posted July 10, 2022 04:23 PM |
|
Edited by NimoStar at 16:00, 11 Jul 2022.
|
Which of the campaign heroes would not be all that OP?
The fire witch can mass curse and bloodlust but thta is not that strong for tempo. Im not convinced she would be OP, specially since her specialty is just "starts with expert fire". Furthermore she comes in Fortress which doesn't even have Curse or level 4-5 spells (including both Berserk and Armageddon, and of course Summon Fire Elemental). She does start with the 4th level spell Inferno but that spell is rather bad overall... however, for balance reasons I would still change it for something else.
Likewise, I think the dragon specialist Mutare would not be that strong unles you can get drgons from several different factions in your army. +5 atk and def to just black dragons would be lower than most heroes bonuses in the mid-late game.
____________
Never changing = never improving
|
|
Hourglass
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2022 06:01 PM |
|
|
NimoStar said:
Which of the campaign heroes would not be all that OP?
Most of them are actually fine I think.
Gelu is pretty OP due the power of Sharpshooters. He can walk out of his town with over 20 lvl 4 creatures during day one. Adding Archery on top that and the shooters will hit like a truck.
Dracon is likely OP too, he doesn't get nearly as many troops early on, but the Enchanters are more powerful anyway.
Tark gets "only" 3 crocs, but on the other hand he has like top tier starting skills. It should also be noted that just like with Gelu and Dracon, it is possible to create more of their starting by simply giving your own army to another hero, and then entering a safe battle with Tark with a lvl 1 troop or something. When you recruit them back, a creature that's supposed to be at the slot 1 is given to you, so that's additional Nix in Tark's case. Sure, you would be overpaying by a lot, but it should still be worth if the battle you would abuse to this trick is near town/tavern.
After that, it becomes less obvious:
Bidley sure gets better creatures, but I'm not seeing how they would dramatically change Cove's early game. The battles that would be challenging for the regular troops early on, would likely still be hard for Bidley, too. It should still be mentioned with Bidley it's possible to skip building two buildings you usually would end up going for.
I don't really see anyone else being that OP. The boosted lvl 7 creatures are nice, but they don't really boost your early game, as most of those heroes don't even come with that good of starting secondary skills. Adrienne is a good mage, but I don't really see him being that overpowered, mostly due the reasons already said by Nimo.
|
|
Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 11, 2022 08:26 AM |
|
|
Did you just call my beautiful Fire Witch Adrienne HIM 
|
|
NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
|
|
posted July 11, 2022 04:04 PM |
|
Edited by NimoStar at 16:05, 11 Jul 2022.
|
Well, speaking of Adrienne, the reasons I listed are valid but I forgot her starting Inferno spell.
Even though Inferno is not such a good spell overall, expert inferno with 2 power and 2 knowledge and expert fire from level 1 can be pretty unbalancing (even if she starts ustbeing able to cast it once, it's 160 area damage)
For prudence, if enabling her by default in a mod I would change this spell for something else, like Fire Ball (same expert spell points, less damage and area), Fire Shield, Frenzy or something like that.
Other comparable heroes like Solmyr, Deemer, Aislinn, Xyron or Septienna don't start with Expert skill in their respective magic (not even basic) and need many levels to notice the difference.
____________
Never changing = never improving
|
|
Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 11, 2022 05:46 PM |
|
|
I also allowed Adrienne in my map, but she starts with Wisdom and Adv. Fire Magic, but I also buffed a lot of the Fire spells and moved DD to Fire at 1 cast per day.
I think Adrienne is very interesting for Fortress, as I usually go for Water Magic with Fortress heroes, but Adrienne goes Fire.
I also allowed both Sylvia and Beatrice and both Elmore and Derek.
So Castle, Fortress and Cove has 17 heroes.
Also considered adding both Ranloo and Galthran, but Galthran is probably still not a good idea. He would need lower attack and defense bonusses at least.
|
|
Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 15, 2022 08:51 PM |
|
|
|
You guys think Tark would be okay as a starting hero, if he had a normal Cove army?
|
|
gatecrasher
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2022 09:10 PM |
|
|
Town Portal is not OP. For me it is a necessity for the game being playable. I don't have the time to play big maps without it.
Even with Town Portal you crucially gain from good multi-hero management.
But sure the exclusive assignment to Earth Magic is debatable.
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted July 15, 2022 09:29 PM |
|
|
Tark? GM?
OK TP is OP in Allies, XL+U or bigger map.. Depends on TP trap or closed and free piece of land, where you can move to piece of land by FLY or DD, and opponent can't touch you without having FLY or DD for example.. But I developed in game, thus I like AIR is OP.. TP is still more nice to play, because I'm played Allies game over 20 years.. So remember scholar and surrender, you give a TP him/her.. Snow scholar is 4lvl..
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach
|
|
Hourglass
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 16, 2022 06:13 PM |
|
|
Phoenix4ever said:
Did you just call my beautiful Fire Witch Adrienne HIM
Haha, good catch. In Finnish language, only one pronoun is being used for both genders, so for me at least, it doesn't come naturally to avoid such mistakes. I might've and probably will fall for such typo in the future as well, I might even call Adelaide "him", how would you feel about that?
Phoenix4ever said:
You guys think Tark would be okay as a starting hero, if he had a normal Cove army?
I think he would be slightly weaker Alkin, who is by the way being loved by MP community. In some templates that are trying to keep the game as fair as possible for all players, Alkin is actually banned. I think Tark wouldn't necessary have same faith in such template, but would sure be one of the best might heroes out there. In a match where all standard heroes would be allowed, Tark would still be very good, but completely not overpowered.
|
|
Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 16, 2022 06:43 PM |
|
|
You from Finland Hourglass?
I have been there on vacation once. I like your country and you seem to have good taste in music too. \m/\m/
Well calling Adelaide, Milfala, Jenova, Neela or Casmetra etc. him, would make me sad.
Wow people go as far as banning Alkin?, I mean he is a wonderful hero, especially for Fortress, but what about Tazar and Andra for example?...
Yeah I think Tark might be alright with a normal starting army, then I will have 18 Cove heroes available in my map, only missing Bidley.
|
| |
|
|
