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| Thread: Alternate Histories |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Wolfman
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posted October 24, 2002 04:42 PM |
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It is funny!
You should play it sometime.
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bort
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posted October 25, 2002 02:29 AM |
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Quote:
But what system of government and economy would they have if Karl Marx died as a child?
Actually, it's truly horrifying what would have happened if Karl Marx had died as a child. Never would we have been able to laugh at jokes such as "Quote me as saying I was misquoted." or "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." or "A child of five could understand this. fetch me a child of five." Oh wait. That's Groucho. Never mind.
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Wub
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posted October 25, 2002 02:38 AM |
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Quote:
Thank you kindly for proving that I wasn't just making stuff up, Wub. As you can probably tell, my psych knowledge is limited to a single undergraduate class some years ago... You in the field or just happen to know a lot about it?
So you are known for making stuff up? And I thought that butterscotch syrup thingie was for real!  But err..yeah, I kinda study psychology so I ought to be able to tell some things about it.
But to stay on topic, I wonder if it really were those seemingly unimportant happenings that decided world history. For example, I question that if Hitler was never born, there would never have been a second world war. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understood that Germany actually had to pay money for losing World War I until 1985. It is understandable that for a leader such as Hitler it was much easier to seize power while the land was in this impoverized state. If he wasn't born, maybe another would have seized power.
Similarly, if Archduke Franz Ferdinand wasn't murdered that wouldn't necessarily have meant that there wouldn't have been a first World War. And if Osama bin Laden had never been born, there could still be this ongoing fight against terrorism.
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bort
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posted October 25, 2002 02:47 AM |
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Edited By: bort on 24 Oct 2002
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I think Hitler fit into a slot that was going to be filled by somebody given the situation Germany was in. The fact that it was Hitler that filled the slot changed a number of features of the conflict that was probably inevitable. For instance, there's no guarantee that the person who would have filled the Hitler slot in the absence of a Hitler
-- would have been anti-semetic. Then there would have been no Holocaust and quite possibly no Israel.
-- would have tried to take an active role in military planning. Correct me if I'm wrong, (PH especially) but weren't a large number of Germany's strategic errors because Hitler, for instance decided that London rather than military bases was a better target for his bombers.
-- wouldn't have backed down when the UK and France at al made a half hearted objection to Germany rearming
-- would have invaded the USSR
I think you're right that there would still have been a conflict, but I have no clue how it would have ended up. Too many variables.
Edit : Oh, and I don't think I'm known for making stuff up, I just was sort of uneasy when I mentioned that experiment since I was pretty sure I was screwing up many of the details.
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bizud
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posted October 25, 2002 07:19 AM |
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WWI was only inevitable because a conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia was inevitable, and Russia had promised to protect Serbia. If the Russian revolution had happened several years earlier, it was quite possible that Austria would have simply crushed Serbia (A newly-communist Russia would be more likely to practice isolationist policies, which, in fact, the USSR did) without any outside interference. There might have been some reaction by other powers, but nothing major enough to spark a world war.
Franz Ferdinand would have survived, and taken the Austrian throne, and implemented some of his ideas, some of which included changing the existing dual monarchy into a system of "Trialism" by extending equal governing rights to the empire's Slavic peoples (i.e. Austria-Hungary-Croatia, or something similar)
Whether or not the Austro-Hungarian empire continued to decay or not, Germany would have remained the most powerful military nation, and perhaps gone on to defeat France and then Britain (remember, Britain didn't get involved at all until Germany invaded Belgium), and if Austria became a more stable empire, perhaps maintained its alliance with Germany, who, after conquering Europe, might have attacked...
Russia?
America?
Turkey (at this point still a fairly major military power, although a dying one)?
WHO KNOWS?!?!!
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privatehudson
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posted October 25, 2002 10:49 AM |
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WWI was fought for more reasons than alliances. At governmental level there was a will for war in more than 1 nation (in fact in virtually every nation), the balkands was purely a excuse, though a very good one.
Though I doubt Germany could have conquered britain, if there was one thing we did well it was defending this little rock of an island in that period. The german navy was large, but the british navy was more than capable of putting off indefinately german invasion plans 
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Wolfman
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posted October 25, 2002 04:30 PM |
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But Britain wouldn't be that hard to defend. You have a "moat" around the whole country.
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privatehudson
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posted October 25, 2002 04:35 PM |
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uhm HELLO that was my point! We have a sea between us and them, The navy stops them, simple as that! It's not like the US is that hard to defend either, I mean like Canada or Mexico is going to invade!
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bort
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posted October 25, 2002 04:45 PM |
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Quote:
I mean like Canada or Mexico is going to invade!
Believe me, the US military is planning for just such a scenario. The way we figure it, it would take longer for Mexico to mobilize than Canada. After all, they have that elite force mysteriously known as "mounties." So, in the event that our Archduck His Noble Quackiness is assasinated, we will immediately strike at the frigid threat to our North. Then, we will go south for the winter and invade Mexico, leisurely and at our own pace.
Seriously, though, in my experience, there's a certain amount of awe regarding the defense of Britain during WWII in the US. I think we sort of view it like Minas Tirith. I mean seriously, there was no way that the UK could possibly win, but somehow they did. You know -- say what you will about the Limeys, those mofos can fight.
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Wolfman
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posted October 25, 2002 04:49 PM |
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We are being invaded by Mexico! 11 of them rode a train to Iowa. On the side of the train car it said "We will Deliver"
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privatehudson
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posted October 25, 2002 05:25 PM |
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Oh HELL YEAH!
We gave Hitler a right kick in the **** (with help of course)
Thought to be fair it was a combination of the RAF (which contained many poles, americans and czechs to name a few) and the navy holding the supply lines open. We won because we were better tacticians and had better technology (radar and sonar helped a LOT!).
Oh and for a good Canada-America war I REALLY suggest getting hold of the turtledove books. He's kinda anti british (in 1880's war we were the only ones the union beat, in 1914 war we got battered and in a alien filled WWII we turn into nazis!, so it's clear he's no great fan of Britain), but still they are good.
Oh and Wolfman that's called immigration not invasion...... we have a similar problem here.
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Wolfman
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posted October 25, 2002 05:28 PM |
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No, it is invasion because they are coming into the country illeagly.
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privatehudson
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posted October 25, 2002 05:32 PM |
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Then that's asylum seeking then! Either way it's kind different from rolling 300 tanks into the country and shooting at people!
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Wolfman
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posted October 25, 2002 05:37 PM |
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Peaceful, silent invasion. They run accros the boarder. The boarder patrol should just shoot them when they cross the boarder.
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privatehudson
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posted October 25, 2002 05:40 PM |
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Whatever your slightly right wing mind thinks
Back on topic time methinks!
What would have happened in 1940 if the british government had chosen against churchill and for a pro peace faction? Would the british have accepted? What would america and russia done?
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Wolfman
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posted October 25, 2002 05:42 PM |
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The war might have been lost. Pro peace that is rediculous.
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bort
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posted October 25, 2002 07:00 PM |
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I'm sorry, PH, I'm a bit confused. Do you mean what would have happened if the UK had attempted to reach a separate peace with Germany?
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privatehudson
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posted October 25, 2002 07:24 PM |
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Wolfman - It was on the cards, there was a choice between Churchill and another man for taking over Chamberlin in 1940. Churchill advocated war to the death, the other person advocated peace and coming to terms with the germans.
Bort - Yes if we had sued for peace, something along the lines of after the fall of norway and before the crisis in france reached a head with it's fall and the dunkirk crisis. It probably would have entailed an agreement whereby Britain agreed not to interfere in Europe in exhange for axis agreement not to interefere in the Empire.
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bizud
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posted October 26, 2002 07:58 AM |
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PH - yeah, you're probably right, even if Russia hadn't gotten involved at all, it would just have been a france/britain/US(eventually) vs. Germany/Austria/Turkey four-year stalemate.
I'm not entirely convinced that even if Britain HAD reached a peace agreement with Germany, that it would have meant anything. Remember, Hitler double-crossed the USSR (although that was his plan from the beginning). He probably would have just waited until the time was right, and then attacked Britain from the air.
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privatehudson
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posted October 26, 2002 03:46 PM |
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Well that was one aspect of it, but I was more interested in what would have happened to the USA and Russia and their chances of continuing a war and beating germany/japan without the support of Britain and the Empire.
Either way Hitler would not have turned his attention to England until russia was subdued. One of his objectives was basically to come to terms with Britain and use this to conquer Russia. Whether it would have happened is another matter entirely
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