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| Thread: Does Religion fall apart once you decide to pick and choose? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 05, 2003 08:24 AM |
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Just wanted to add
I was accosted on a Friday night in the past (still remember it over 13 years past) by some very zealous Buddists. Some of the most pushy individuals I have run into religiously speaking. It was interesting.
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*Walks in, sees dead horse. Can't restrain self, runs in, begins kicking dead horse*
The religion that really bugs me is Buddhism. I mean, come on -- what's with this acceptance of other faiths crap? Proper religions try to convert/riducule/kill me if I don't follow whatever they say. Freakin' Buddhists just assume I'll get it right somewhere along the line, maybe in 6 or 7 lifetimes or so.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted January 05, 2003 08:45 AM |
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Dargon, universal medicare wouldn't break you like you think it would. Canada does it. Granted, we have a few budget problems, but those are mostly due to incompetant socialists (yes, I am somewhat of a left-winger, but there are smart capitalists and dumb capitalists, and the same goes for socialists) who extended our deficit far too much, blah blah blah, anyway...
First of all, why has the United States defense budget not decreased since the end of the cold war? It has increased, in fact. American defense spending has been steadily increasing since the end of the cold war, and it still includes a HEAVY "nuclear defense budget." Now, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the US doesn't need any more nukes (or any nukes, but that's another matter), and none of this money went to disarmament, so where did it go? Bigger and better satellite tracking systems, and other star wars-like gismos. The United States could HALF it's defense budget, provide health care, and still be the world's only military and economic superpower.
And anyway, what's more important to you? Seeing a poor family's sole provider get the new kidney he needs (without being sent to the poor house), or getting a few more bucks on your pay check? American tax rates are ridiculously low, by the world standard. So is it's rate of socialized services, and it's minimum wage. It's an ass-backwards country, in many ways, and the fact that it's the world leader in so many others is extremely disturbing.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted January 05, 2003 08:59 AM |
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And as for necrophilia, well, here's how I think. Corpse-lovin' Bob does what he feels like, I'm not going to stop him (altough the body's family might). I mean, it's nasty, it's a little weird, but from an objective perspective, and on morality, we DO have to be objective, I guess it's not wrong. Not my cup of tea, though. To each their own. I do think people's religions should be respected, though, so he should respect the remains of people who would give a damn.
Incest, um, okay, here's how it is. I can't think why incest is wrong. I mean, every thing I believe tells me to find a reason to justify it, but I can't, so I'm just going to grudgingly admit that it's okay. Again, I'd be weirded out by anyone who did it, though.
I believe very strongly in the statement "To each their own." Do what you want, run your own life, as long as you aren't preventing another from doing the same.
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 05, 2003 09:10 AM |
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a few things
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it needs to be pointed out that, until at least month 7 or so, the fetus is absolutely dependent upon the mother for survival.
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Pretty much true, though not completely. Also the same must be said of a 10 month old baby as well no? .... and for how long does this dependence persist any how? Your post does well to show that surely there must be a cut off somewhere most certainly. Least that be true in my thinking.
It is interesting that a baby cut from the mothers womb at 5 months can be called "pre-mature," and there are plenty of these individuals alive today.....and then there are the "fetuses" that get aborted at say, 5.5 months for sake of argument. Mental hopscotch to justify that I say. Hey, I am for killing babies at different times, but at least I call it what it is and have an open mind about the matter.
dArGOn, well put thoughts on the ethical delimas that Bizud and Khaelo don't come close to answering in any legitimate fashion regarding morality and the existence of God. I almost didn't post at all after that. Love how the "no god"-types, love to try to justify moral decisions after they assert that there is no God. How absurd and hypocritical. 'Course you can always cap this off with a large helping of loudness, propoganda, and logical fallacies to add legitimacy.
Also, Bizud, your genetic argument for homosexuality is weak and I will grant that there is a genetic component to homosexuality even though the genes for this have not been substantiated. Simply put, pretend there is a perfect example of a gene that "causes" homosexuality, then you will also find people who have this gene and still are not homosexuals more then likely. Thus, the genes do not MAKE you a homosexual. At some point I personally CHOOSE to be one and to be a MURDER as well if I am one(depends on your definitions), regardless of my genetic components and social upbringings.
Issues of homosexuality: it would be nice if there were just as many opened minds towards heterosexuals and issues within the homosexual communities as the community wished others had towards them from other sexual communities. Unfortunately, I have generally never encountered this from my friends (homosexual), rather a continual oppressive and coercive force that they seek to put upon others is usually actively working full-time(I have yet to see any community you say has acknowledged this biggotry Khaelo, but I do hope it is true...I imagine somewhere there is at least one). I think it's quite hypocritical and it makes me sad to see such things actually.
Another interesting moral thing: I never see any of the "freedom of speech" lovers take up arms for a biggoted skin head, or a black panther. Anyone want to address this from a "no-god" universe position?
Oh, one more I would like to add. I believe all people are born as "not good." I haven't met a "good" person yet in the world. I meet evil people who do seemingly good things all the time though 
Thank you all for posting your thoughts. Nice reading your ideas, whether they be truth or error. Hopefully, I'm learning here too.
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 05, 2003 09:20 AM |
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And as for necrophilia, well, here's how I think. Corpse-lovin' Bob does what he feels like, I'm not going to stop him (altough the body's family might). I mean, it's nasty, it's a little weird, but from an objective perspective, and on morality, we DO have to be objective, I guess it's not wrong. Not my cup of tea, though. To each their own. I do think people's religions should be respected, though, so he should respect the remains of people who would give a damn.
Incest, um, okay, here's how it is. I can't think why incest is wrong. I mean, every thing I believe tells me to find a reason to justify it, but I can't, so I'm just going to grudgingly admit that it's okay. Again, I'd be weirded out by anyone who did it, though.
I believe very strongly in the statement "To each their own." Do what you want, run your own life, as long as you aren't preventing another from doing the same.
Ah, soon you will set me free to murder those that I like so much in my own sexual gratification practices. You're on the slippery slope there.
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted January 05, 2003 09:23 AM |
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Here I am. I don't think skinheads are right in what they do, but I'd fight for their right to do it. Once again, their ranting might contribute to murder of, say, homosexuals, but if Bob the gay basher kills someone, Bob is at fault, not the person who gave him the idea. I don't like making things illegal lightly. If I'm going to have my freedom taken away from me, I had better be one chilled can of soup.
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 05, 2003 09:43 AM |
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Dargon, universal medicare wouldn't break you like you think it would. Canada does it. Granted, we have a few budget problems, but those are mostly due to incompetant socialists (yes, I am somewhat of a left-winger, but there are smart capitalists and dumb capitalists, and the same goes for socialists) who extended our deficit far too much, blah blah blah, anyway...
First of all, why has the United States defense budget not decreased since the end of the cold war? It has increased, in fact. American defense spending has been steadily increasing since the end of the cold war, and it still includes a HEAVY "nuclear defense budget." Now, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the US doesn't need any more nukes (or any nukes, but that's another matter), and none of this money went to disarmament, so where did it go? Bigger and better satellite tracking systems, and other star wars-like gismos. The United States could HALF it's defense budget, provide health care, and still be the world's only military and economic superpower.
This must be supposed to mean that cutting military spending will provide a blissful healthcare system for all with no other negative repercussions to follow?
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And anyway, what's more important to you? Seeing a poor family's sole provider get the new kidney he needs (without being sent to the poor house), or getting a few more bucks on your pay check?
Seeing people take care of eachother rather then seeing people TAKE from others what they didn't earn is more important to me. Btw....anything wrong with me giving one of the sexual pleasures of my leftovers kidney to your guy? See the benefits?
Btw, is canabalism wrong? How about if the person is all ready dead of natural causes and then weee eatsss em my preciousss? I maintain canabalism is no different then organ transplantation.
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American tax rates are ridiculously low, by the world standard. So is it's rate of socialized services, and it's minimum wage. It's an ass-backwards country, in many ways, and the fact that it's the world leader in so many others is extremely disturbing.
Gee, I sure hope no Americans decide that since the rest of the world heavily taxes their citizens that we should do the same (personal pocketbook worries of course). That notion is disturbing. America sure is evil eh? Since the country doesn't really need expansion any more and it is such an evil place they could easily throw open the borders now and nobody would want to immigrate here. It wouldn't be suprising if mass exodus soon begins if your thinking were followed here Bizud.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted January 05, 2003 02:53 PM |
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It's not my opinions that make me say these things, it's the facts that I know that go beyond what your average american knows. America is a nation built on propaganda and imperialism. The ideals may be sound, but they aren't really put into practice.
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This must be supposed to mean that cutting military spending will provide a blissful healthcare system for all with no other negative repercussions to follow?
Um...yes! The US doesn't need to spend near as much money on defense as it does, especially since the "russian threat" (not that the russians ever were a threat, mind you) is long gone. During the cold war, the US used the Soviets as an excuse to spend more on defense. Okay, so now that the Soviets are gone, and the cold war is over, shouldn't defense spending have decreased? Oh, wait, that's right, the soviets were just an EXCUSE to spend that much money, and when they left, they had to MAKE a new excuse. What I'm about to say isn't going to earn me any friends, but that excuse was 9/11.
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Seeing people take care of eachother rather then seeing people TAKE from others what they didn't earn is more important to me. Btw....anything wrong with me giving one of the sexual pleasures of my leftovers kidney to your guy? See the benefits?
I don't even know what "sexual pleasures" you're talking about. Seriously, what does that sentence even mean?
So, give to charities, but socialized health care is wrong. Don't get me wrong, charities are a good thing, and so is supporting them, but they obviously aren't enough, or we wouldn't have poverty or disease! I'm sorry, but "the system ain't perfect, but it's the best we've got" is a horrible excuse not to spend the time looking for a better way, and it's discouraged by the ruling elite, because they know that they're in the 0.0001% of people who would lose out on the deal. They already have all the material comforts imaginable. But still they don't want the world to be the perfect place it could be. Why? The one thing they have that a utopian system can't offer them: Power.
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Btw, is canabalism wrong? How about if the person is all ready dead of natural causes and then weee eatsss em my preciousss? I maintain canabalism is no different then organ transplantation.
Cannibalism is wrong if it contradicts the wishes of the person who's remains are being eaten, or those of his/her family's. Also, from a logical perspective, cannibalism is stupid, because of little guys called viruses.
Viruses, unlike bacteria, are not destroyed by cooking. Human bodies are filled with viruses. Our immune system just manages to take care of most of them. Not surprisingly, these viruses are much more prevalent in a dead body. Of course, they're also present in beef (dead cow bodies). But the difference is that cow viruses cannot infect humans. Most viruses can only target specific species (unlike bacteria, who don't care what they infect. That's right, you can give your dog strep throat, but not the flu). The point is that eating meat of one's own species leads to countless diseases. This is also the reason for mad cow disease: feeding cow parts to cows.
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Gee, I sure hope no Americans decide that since the rest of the world heavily taxes their citizens that we should do the same (personal pocketbook worries of course). That notion is disturbing. America sure is evil eh? Since the country doesn't really need expansion any more and it is such an evil place they could easily throw open the borders now and nobody would want to immigrate here. It wouldn't be suprising if mass exodus soon begins if your thinking were followed here Bizud.
You're kidding yourself if you think America isn't trying to expand. That's what this Iraq business is all about; setting up a pro-american government so that America gets all the oil she needs.
And that you would even mention your personal pocketbook shows that you don't understand the facts. I don't know what stats you're looking at, but Canada, Britain, the Netherlands, France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Belgium all enjoy a higher average standard of living than America. And if you insist on looking at it from a selfish point of view, how much better would it be for you if you didn't have to pay medical insurance?
It absolutely amazes me when Americans speak out against universal medicare. Ask any Canadian, they'll tell you it's a right they'd die to protect. Of course, I suppose you won't understand until you forget to pay your insurance, suddenly need open heart surgery, and you're stuck with a $20,000+ tab just because you were unlucky. Not to mention the fact that you probably lost your job during the two months you spent recovering.
Honestly, go read everything by Noam Chomsky that you can get your hands on, it might open your eyes a little.
The people of America are not evil. I never said they were. I've found every American I've known to be a very nice person. But most of them ARE ignorant of some of the goings-on, past and present, that their country has orchestrated. And so are most Canadians. But I digress. I could tell you things that would make your blood run cold, and the funny thing is, you probably wouldn't believe me. "What nonsense, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA would never have any part of something like that," you'd tell me as the star-spangled banner waves in the background.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted January 05, 2003 02:55 PM |
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And stop with the murder references. You're creeping me out. I already told you, I don't care what you do, as long as you don't prevent others from enjoying the same freedom. Murder is obviously wrong, because it removes from the victim control over his or her life.
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted January 05, 2003 06:00 PM |
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dArGOn, well put thoughts on the ethical delimas that Bizud and Khaelo don't come close to answering in any legitimate fashion regarding morality and the existence of God.
Where did my argument lack legitimacy? Why don't you think it even came close? Address the argument itself, please, rather than just abstractly criticizing it. How can I answer a vague criticism like this?
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I almost didn't post at all after that. Love how the "no god"-types, love to try to justify moral decisions after they assert that there is no God. How absurd and hypocritical. 'Course you can always cap this off with a large helping of loudness, propoganda, and logical fallacies to add legitimacy.
Please provide examples of loudness, propoganda, and logical fallacies used in place of legitimate points. I spent a lot of time and effort on those posts; can you show me exactly what I did wrong in your opinion? (aside from disagreeing with you, of course  )
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<snip> Issues of homosexuality: it would be nice if there were just as many opened minds towards heterosexuals and issues within the homosexual communities as the community wished others had towards them from other sexual communities. Unfortunately, I have generally never encountered this from my friends (homosexual), rather a continual oppressive and coercive force that they seek to put upon others is usually actively working full-time(I have yet to see any community you say has acknowledged this biggotry Khaelo, but I do hope it is true...I imagine somewhere there is at least one). I think it's quite hypocritical and it makes me sad to see such things actually.
Obviously! 100% agreement here! It's like feminism, though...some people take very extreme attitudes in order to get noticed and get things moving. It's also a reaction to oppression. These people are angry. If the tables were turned, if YOU and your loved one faced the problems that gay couples face today, wouldn't you be angry at your oppressors, too?
All that is not to say that the attitude isn't hypocritical. It is (just like extreme feminism is). In my experience, people this closed-minded are in the minority. However, even if they are not, their attitude doesn't negate the fact that people of alternate sexualities ARE oppressed. You can't use their jerkiness as an excuse to continue giving heterosexuals privileges that others have no access to.
I'm confused as to how your homosexual friends are putting a "continual oppressive and coercive force" on you. How are they oppressing you? What are they trying to coerce you to do?
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 10, 2003 08:04 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 10 Jan 2003
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“America is a nation built on propaganda and imperialism.”
Ummm how did the French Canadians get their land? How did Mexicans get their land? I can tell you it wasn’t by invitation of the native people.
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“The US doesn't need to spend near as much money on defense as it does, especially since the "russian threat" (not that the russians ever were a threat, mind you) is long gone. During the cold war, the US used the Soviets as an excuse to spend more on defense. Okay, so now that the Soviets are gone, and the cold war is over, shouldn't defense spending have decreased?”
You are absolutely correct…there are no more people who want to harm others…USSR was the last evil empire…opps my bad there are lots of others who want to kill free people
Also why do so many countries feel it is their moral ground to critique us at all? I thought you were for live and let live yet you are trying to tell us that we are wrong despite us all liking it here?
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“the soviets were just an EXCUSE to spend that much money, and when they left, they had to MAKE a new excuse. What I'm about to say isn't going to earn me any friends, but that excuse was 9/11.”
First that is kind of sick my friend. Second you argue against yourself…the cold war was over about 15 years ago…and according to you the USA’s spending increased ever since…but now you say it is increasing because of 9/11…so which is it?
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“So, give to charities, but socialized health care is wrong. Don't get me wrong, charities are a good thing, and so is supporting them, but they obviously aren't enough, or we wouldn't have poverty or disease!”
HUH? We have a multitude of nations that are socialist…yet we still have poverty and disease in the world….how come? I thought socialism was suppose to cure it all?
Fact is that the more government takes over charity, the less people give to charity. Thus the USA gives more than everyone else in the world because our government has yet to become socialized (well unfortunately we have to a degree…just not as much as most other nations). What is the higher value. to freely give money to help people or to have your government seize your money to help people? What is the higher value…getting out and doing charity work yourself or letting some bureaucrat do your charity work for you? What is the higher value using much more results orientated charities to assist in helping others or using a bureaucratic government to eat up all the money and give very little in return to the people that need it?
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“That's what this Iraq business is all about; setting up a pro-american government so that America gets all the oil she needs.”
Little thought for people…if the middle east suddenly suspended oil to the world….the world, including Canada, would be SHUT DOWN. People would die in the millions from the economic shut down and lack of services that they need (Grandma with a heart attack would have to walk to her hospital…but then the medical supplies didn’t come in because they are waiting for them by horse…etc). Sounds like the most humanitarian act you can currently do in this world is make sure oil does not stop coming into the world!
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 10, 2003 08:17 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 10 Jan 2003
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"Dargon, universal medicare wouldn't break you like you think it would. Canada does it..¨
I really don't think Canada is a good example. One, Canada isn't known for its cutting edge medical treatment thus many Canadians come to the USA and pay out of pocket for good medical care. Two, Canada doesn't even have enough doctors so the government contracts with American doctors to provide care for Canadians. Three, America spends the most money on medical research while the world profits from our discovery and money. Four, the USA spends billions upon billions to protect the freedom of the world in our military...which produces extreme sense of safety for Canada resulting in Canada's pitiful army...but then Canada can use all that military savings to pour into health care...but if USA didn't spend the money for defense then Canada would have to spend the money on their own defense. Five, it would break any country that had to provide the latest and most expensive care for every situation (which Canada does not provide for their citizens). So Canada's situation is not something to be esteemed...socialized medicine leads to poorer medical care and abysmal medical research.
But more importantly I was not debating whether a country should or should not have socialized medicine...if you want it more power to you... "is medical care a right in the USA since we have a right to life in our Constitution?"
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"First of all, why has the United States defense budget not decreased since the end of the cold war¨
First that is not correct...Clinton did an excellent job of gutting our military. Second, I would think all that is happening in the world is reason enough to understand why we want to have a strong defense. Take North Korea for example...a very small country...with an evil leader...they have the 5th largest military in the world...that is crazy given their size. So the bad guys sure aren't laying down their arms, so for us to do so would prove very unwise not only for us but for the world!
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"The United States could HALF it's defense budget, provide health care, and still be the world's only military and economic superpower."
That is not correct by any stretch. We are the superpower because of capatalism. Also with all the UN's peace keeping missions..guess who foots all the bill? USA is constantly provides the most troops, money, and medical care for the world. USA is the world's welfare only we don't get any appreciation for it
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"American tax rates are ridiculously low, by the world standard¨
LOL...that is hilarious...they only seem low to you because you live in a socialist system;P You are turning things exactly backwards...that is like saying "America's cost for bread is ridiculously low"...you are giving us a compliment but phrasing it as a deficit. Socialism does not work thus your country has no where near the economy we do. What socialist don't get is that all these "feel good" programs suck the life right out of an economy. Lower taxes means stronger economy...stronger economy means more taxes collected...it is a beautiful cycle! We spend billions on the poor...all of our poor people have medical insurance.
America's poor are extremely rich compared to the world...can't get much better than that. Our charity giving is the highest in the WORLD. Our humanitarian aid is the highest in the WORLD.
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"So is it's rate of socialized services, and it's minimum wage. It's an ass-backwards country, in many ways, and the fact that it's the world leader in so many others is extremely disturbing."
Again you prove the point...the reason we are the world leader is because we aren't socialist! Socialists need to wake up and smell the coffee
If our country is so backwards could someone please help me understand why more people for the last century have been flocking to move to the USA and not some other country? Why not Canada? Why not Germany? If you guys have it so correct people should be flocking to live in your country more then the USA! Seriously answer that please!
The facts really don't represent the picture many try to make. If we are backwards we would have the weakest economy, have the most poor, have the smallest army and have the least amount of people trying to immigrate here. Seriously think about it...all the opposite is true so you would think it would make the rest of the nations take notice. It is kind of like an "A" student in school...and all the rest of the kids try to critique him while they are "C" students. What they should do is emulate the "A" student...but I guess that would make to much sense
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"And as for necrophilia, well, here's how I think. Corpse-lovin' Bob does what he feels like"
Well at least you are consistent...most of the world that preaches relativism sure isn't though.
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"Oh, one more I would like to add. I believe all people are born as "not good." I haven't met a "good" person yet in the world. I meet evil people who do seemingly good things all the time though"
That is absolutely correct
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"If I'm going to have my freedom taken away from me"
Wait a second...you were just talking about how everyone needs to be taxed more...forcibly taking someone's money is a huge infringement on freedom. Money is property...the government is taking your property without your consent...that isn't freedom. If you are all for freedom you are a libertarian not a socialist
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 10, 2003 12:58 PM |
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No time to follow all the arguments here, you never know when the forum will go offline again! Just to say:
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Why? On what moral grounds? On what authority do you state that? If there is no God all things are permissible.
Whilst accepting this argument on the basis that without god, morality comes down to individual wishes and aims, I don't quite agree that this does not also apply to a person/life with god. Religions such as Christianity relying on a book open to interpretation are just as likely to use their own morality as anyone else. There's enough passages of the bible that could legitamise according to "christians" anything. Indeed you could almost claim it's many times worse. Non-believers may permit anything, believers not only permit an awful lot of things, they also often have the absolute conviction that they, and only those that agree with them can be right and therefore moral.
Therefore even with god, all things are permissable, it all depends on how you interpret or twist "god's word"
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted January 11, 2003 12:31 AM |
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LOL...that is hilarious...they only seem low to you because you live in a socialist system;P You are turning things exactly backwards...that is like saying "America's cost for bread is ridiculously low"...you are giving us a compliment but phrasing it as a deficit. Socialism does not work thus your country has no where near the economy we do. What socialist don't get is that all these "feel good" programs suck the life right out of an economy. Lower taxes means stronger economy...stronger economy means more taxes collected...it is a beautiful cycle! We spend billions on the poor...all of our poor people have medical insurance.
If you wanna discuss american foreign policy, let's step outside. That's a whole 'nother discussion, one I won't pull any punches on.
Beautiful cycle my ass! Socialism "doesn't work?" What a load of crap! The Swedes make it work damn fine. Answer me this question: what's more important to you: Seeing a few more bucks go into the pockets of the rich, or eliminating poverty? Do you realize the horrible discrepancy between the rich and the poor that exists under capitalism? Are you seriously telling me things "aren't that bad?" Open your eyes. Capitalism is an evil, exploitative system that keeps the poor poor and the rich rich.
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 12, 2003 06:25 AM |
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If you wanna discuss american foreign policy, let's step outside. That's a whole 'nother discussion, one I won't pull any punches on.
Whaaaaat? Well at least we respond to your thoughts here. Really do hope you keep an open mind.
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Beautiful cycle my ass! Socialism "doesn't work?" What a load of crap! The Swedes make it work damn fine. Answer me this question: what's more important to you: Seeing a few more bucks go into the pockets of the rich, or eliminating poverty? Do you realize the horrible discrepancy between the rich and the poor that exists under capitalism? Are you seriously telling me things "aren't that bad?" Open your eyes. Capitalism is an evil, exploitative system that keeps the poor poor and the rich rich.
Bizud, defender of the poor eh? I am willing to bet you are a HUGE hyporcrite when it comes to your own pocketbook. Do tell us how many thousands of dollars you and your moral outlook do give to contribute to the poor and needy. You are the load of crap dude. It is exactly as dArGOn stated....easier to NOT give when you are dependent on your government to provide for you and your countrymen. Problem is that the governement usage for aide of any kind becomes encumbered and less money reaches the needed areas. People who care about their neighbor (ie: those in need in their reachable area) to help them out do a much better job then any government. Additionally, you have some serious misconceptions about medical aide given in America. I have myself even received government assistance for medical care and any citizen here is cared for in that manner.....I would prefer if this were not available though because people do need to fill this role and not the government.
Your talk is completely double-sided. You talk about how everyone is free and then turn around and continue to tell us and the rest of the world how we should live and what we should value as though you were God. I do hope you realize this is what you inevitably say in your talk.
It is always easy for someone lazy to tell others how they should spend their money when you don't earn yours. You simply seek justifications for stealing from others to "re-allocate" "the rich mans" wealth. Pffftttt..... so much for your freedom loving. Don't rich people deserve their wealth? It is after all.....THEIRS....who makes you God to take it from them Bizud? Follow your proclaimed morals and quit telling others what is right and wrong and where they are SUPPOSED to spend their money. Honor your words, else you are but a simple hypocrite.
[sidenote: Personally, I think all people are hypocrites, and being hypocritical is inevitable, but it is the more glaring blatant hypocrisies that really seem to invalidate what people say.]
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dEth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 12, 2003 06:32 AM |
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No time to follow all the arguments here, you never know when the forum will go offline again! Just to say:
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Why? On what moral grounds? On what authority do you state that? If there is no God all things are permissible.
Whilst accepting this argument on the basis that without god, morality comes down to individual wishes and aims, I don't quite agree that this does not also apply to a person/life with god. Religions such as Christianity relying on a book open to interpretation are just as likely to use their own morality as anyone else. There's enough passages of the bible that could legitamise according to "christians" anything. Indeed you could almost claim it's many times worse. Non-believers may permit anything, believers not only permit an awful lot of things, they also often have the absolute conviction that they, and only those that agree with them can be right and therefore moral.
Therefore even with god, all things are permissable, it all depends on how you interpret or twist "god's word"
Good point about people twisting whatever holy book they use to suit whatever their decide they want to justify. It does all go down the toilet if their book is true and they misinterpret it too.....not that they will not do what they choose....but that most "holy" books speak of some retribution for such misinterpretations. I am glad you see the point that there are no morals besides willful decisions based on whim or mass desire without an absolute.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2003 08:43 AM |
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“Therefore even with god, all things are permissable, it all depends on how you interpret or twist "god's word"”
As a student of theology I will have to say there is truth to that statement. Having said that…I do think you are overstating the case as most theologians do an intense amount of dialogue and research about the original context, meaning, etc. This research has been going on for centuries. There are difference of opinion on primarily minor issues…but in general the intellectual communities dialogue has made most of Biblical theology very objective. I would encourage people to actually look into the study of theology as it is rigorous and exemplary….full proof of course not…but not just an “anything goes” interpretation. Theology is a science and as such has much credible information to relay.
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“Beautiful cycle my ass! Socialism "doesn't work?" What a load of crap! The Swedes make it work damn fine. Answer me this question: what's more important to you: Seeing a few more bucks go into the pockets of the rich, or eliminating poverty? Do you realize the horrible discrepancy between the rich and the poor that exists under capitalism? Are you seriously telling me things "aren't that bad?" Open your eyes. Capitalism is an evil, exploitative system that keeps the poor poor and the rich rich.”
Capitalism is the worst system around, except for every other system.
Socialism is a risky experiment….it will die as communism (its big brother) has been collapsing. No country can indefinitely tax itself into prosperity.
Few more bucks in my pocket….umm yeah they are MY bucks…not yours…don’t try to steal them from me like some sort of warped dictator. Answer me this if socialists are so “kind hearted” why do Americans out give all other countries….some like Germany and France by 100 fold????? Our yearly freely given charity work dwarfs all “caring” countries!
If you want to give me your bucks I will be glad to take em…I will send you my address if you think it is so great to part with your money….I will not even keep em myself, but donate it to homeless shelter, starving children, etc.
Answer me this…do you own a phone? A microwave? A VCR? A computer? A TV? IF so you are a complete hypocrite…you need to take those “few bucks” out of your pocket and send it to Africa…until then keep your blatant diatribe down to a minimum as you obviously don’t live what you preach.
Huge discrepancy? There is a huge discrepancy in people athletic abilities…in their intellectual abilities….are you going to cut of the athlete’s legs off to make things equitable? Are you going to lobotomize the intellectual to make things equitable? Come on… these Class warfare issues are things most of us gave up in grade school. NOTHING IN LIFE IS EQUITABLE and it never will be! The guy who gets all the girls should he be rationed? Should those girls be forced to marry some ugly guy so things are equitable? If you are so for equity why aren’t you a communist where everyone can allegedly be “equal”.
As far as keeps the rich rich and the poor poor…..could you please explain to me how on earth most of the millionaires in America were NOT born into rich families (easy enough to research that fact if you are interested)? Anyone can be rich in America…there are thousands upon thousands of examples of people who came from the lower or middle class who are now extremely rich. See statements like you made have no bearing on reality as reality laughs and scoffs at their elaborate appearance of wisdom!
BTW in America there are massive programs of food aid for all people and there are NO poor people without life saving medical care…so please stop trying to paint some untrue statement about capitalism.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted January 13, 2003 01:00 AM |
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I'm sure theology is a nice thing to study if I had about 10 times the amount of spare time I have right now I probably would, but until then..............
As far as it goes though, I'm not sure theology means as much to the main religions as you're indicating. The bible and theology can and has been used down the centuries and in recent years to permit many dreadful acts. Theology can only do it's best to determine the meaning of the bible, but inevitably, like any science there is more than one opinion of each subject or passage, which leads to the acts being permitted.
If the leader of one religion (lets say for arguments sake the Pope) decided tommorow to launch a holy war against Iraq, there would at the end of the day be enough theologians lined up with him telling him that there's X passages of the bible to support his decision.
It's down to interpretation of the book, and since no-one is ever going to quite finally determine exactly what god (if you believe he wrote the text) or the writers meant there will always be many different points of view.
And unfortunately, like I said, once a religious leader determines that their text supports them (no matter how wrong they may be) there will be enough laymen ready to believe them and not do any research themselves to make their own decision. Safe in the knowledge that they are following "gods word" these people feel more than justified to use whatever means they wish.
So which is more dangerous? People with absolute conviction that they are right and are prepared to die to enforce this on others, or people who choose their own morals, be them good or bad, but are in the main unwilling to force these morals on other people. Most aethiests have no intention of forcing their morals on others, most religious people, through their religion do.
To my recollection there's not been to many wars were one country was trying to force the other into aethiesm, but there have been pleanty fuelled by the passions of religious zealots, determined to wipe out non-believers or other religious groups.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2003 03:24 AM |
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You people have been painting demons to every wall with such a haste that there hardly is any walls left for me to paint to. Ah, got one!
Dargon, deth8, God created man to his own image. If you say that people are evil from their birth, doesn't that also mean that God is evil? Sure, people opt to do sin instead of living in paradise, but they weren't created to do sin they've been given free will to choose, and we still have that free will and we can still opt to choose not to do sin. And even if we do sin, and I'm certain most of us have done so, that doesn't make us evil as we can turn to good.
And the biggest stress to the economy certainly isn't social welfare or high taxes, it is the military and war.
Dargon, you say that Nuclear weapons have kept the war at bay, but yet even you people in USA have had war in Vietnam. Or were you talking about world wars? There was only one of them before the World War 2, and neither of them can be really be called as World Wars, the focus of it was on the Europe.
Bizud, you sure get easily offended when people question your beliefs. Why don't you follow your own advice and **** off like you said as all you try to do here is to prove others beliefs are wrong (especially when they contradict yours)?
By the way, big bang theory is no more of a scientific fact than the evolution is, it is a scientific theory and scientific theory can only be proven true via scientific method. And how can scientists use scientific method to something that requires such a mass and is on such a great scale? How the earth came to be is not proven by blowing off some candle sticks. But you said it yourself, you belief into evolution, so it is more of matter of belief to you than a scientific fact, even if you say otherwise.
But to the theory of evolution, care to explain how blood evolved? How eyes and eyesight evolved? Which parts of the lungs first evolved? How liver evolved?
Those questions are much easier to answer when you admit the possibility of god or such high being, when there is purpose for such a development. If there is no purpose well, you can only argue how the "random thing" that has no goal or purpose managed to make the eye-nerves ready for eyes to come and look, or was it the eyes that came first for the nerves to be able to have an image of the world, or did they both just pop up at the same time to co-exist together?
Even if you roll the dice 100000000000000000000000+ times the letter 6 will never change to 9 unless the viewer so errs. And never it will change to 7. And why I couldn't take material example when the whole evolution theory says that living things evolved from the non-living material.
By the way, even Darwin became suspicious to "his" (he was not the first who came up with that theory) evolution theory in his older days when he grow wiser. Yes, you may be eager to say (and other evolutionists) that he grow only senile, but maybe it is you who don't see it as a whole?
Lews_Therin, everything is simple when you understand. And wouldn't God understand his own creation?
Life is what it is.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2003 06:37 AM |
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“To my recollection there's not been to many wars were one country was trying to force the other into aethiesm, but there have been pleanty fuelled by the passions of religious zealots, determined to wipe out non-believers or other religious groups.”
Ummm how about Stalin and Mao (both staunch atheists who HATED religion)…between them they killed about 100 million people!
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“And unfortunately, like I said, once a religious leader determines that their text supports them (no matter how wrong they may be) there will be enough laymen ready to believe them and not do any research themselves to make their own decision.”
Thus “sola scriptora(sp?)”… scripture only …thanks to the protestant reformation we are only to look at scripture to find what God would have us do…and not follow man. We are informed by men but must weigh the words ourselves through careful study.
Also again I do agree that there is interpretation of the Bible…but in true scriptural exegesis you go back to study the historical context and the actual greek/hebrew/aramaic words. Thus if a Greek word is translated as “love” you can’t easily then just switch it to mean “lust”. Granted words sometimes have a range of meanings…by they are also generally dictated by the context that they are used in.
So again I don’t think interpretation is as widely subjective as some might believe it to be. There are standards that are to be applied to the study of Theology just as there are standards to be applied to Biology. Sure someone can throw those standards out the window…but it can happen in Biology as much as it can happen in Theology.
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“Dargon, deth8, God created man to his own image. If you say that people are evil from their birth, doesn't that also mean that God is evil?”
No. God created Adam in his own image before Adam had sinned. Through biology we retain an image of God, but a distorted one.
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“Or were you talking about world wars? There was only one of them before the World War 2, and neither of them can be really be called as World Wars, the focus of it was on the Europe.”
Umm in WWII there were at least 4 continents if not more involved in the war…can’t get much bigger than that.
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“Dargon, you say that Nuclear weapons have kept the war at bay, but yet even you people in USA have had war in Vietnam. Or were you talking about world wars?”
Yes I am referring to the World wars. Yes there have been minor wars since the end of WWII but no where near the magnitude of deaths and costs as the world wars. Nukes kept USSR and USA in a remarkably peaceful state considering that we both seemed to hate each other and want the other removed…but our fear and knowledge of the consequences changed a probable world war into a cold war. Very happy it worked out that way.
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“By the way, big bang theory is no more of a scientific fact than the evolution is, it is a scientific theory and scientific theory can only be proven true via scientific method. And how can scientists use scientific method to something that requires such a mass and is on such a great scale?”
Strong and valid argument. Evolution is a theory (as far as the genesis of mankind) just like [catastrophic] global warming theory…too many people call scientific theories scientific fact
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