|
|
Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:00 PM |
|
|
You have a wrong formula. Pitlords do 15 + 15 x Spell Power with Meteor Shower
10 Pitlords have spellpower of 15, so Meteor Shower does
15 + 15 x 15 = 240 damage
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You have a wrong formula. Pitlords do 15 + 15 x Spell Power with Meteor Shower
10 Pitlords have spellpower of 15, so Meteor Shower does
15 + 15 x 15 = 240 damage
indeed i have 
spell power = 3 + (.32 x no. units) = 6.2
15 x 6.2 = 93 ...
that's how it is at http://www.the-genies-lamp.com/heroes_5_main.htm... i never tested it since i think pit lords are crap, and usually skip them
what is the real formula ?! 
i might go for the pit lords if it's like you say it is
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
that is pure theory
The fact is that the fireball ballista can kill like 60 marksmen per turn on lvl 15 (more with luck). With a quick rush, you won't even reach angels. sorry
it takes only 250 dmg to take out you most valueable source of ranged dmg so dont count on it
|
|
Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:18 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Archer - upgrade to marksmen 
Marksmen - best lvl2 in the game(2-8 dmg is huge), bless them with you hero or inquisitor and they will deal more damage than the magi (7-7) which are lvl 4, not to mention their numbers !!!
Footman - good anti shooter, best to upgrade to squire
Squire - best lvl 3... they can protect almost all you army from ranged attacks (50%) with their shields ... they are not great on the offense but they make up for that with their huge defensive bonus
I think I had several heart attacks when I read that. Marksmen the best level 2? You've got to be joking me. You take 100 Marksmen, and I'll take 100 Blood Furies. You're a shooter and I don't allow retaliation. Sound fair? I'll even let you bless them and I even waste a turn to position my Blood Furies. Your Marksmen will do half damage to me, while I do full damage to you. I have 12 shots (or 12 turns) to kill me; I have unlimited turns to kill you. Each of my Blood Furies have 16 Health; each of your Marksmen have 10 Health.
And Squires, best level 3? I'll take my Master Hunters, you take your Squires. I have 3 turns before you reach me (and this is not taking into account of Warding Arrows!) to do as much damage as I can. Oh, and since I have an initiative of 10, and you have 8, I could possibly get another turn in there. So that's 4 turns before you even touch me.
Okay, all that aside, I agree Haven has some really good units, but they're by no means top tier. The best thing about Haven is Training. Has anyone ever played Heroic against Haven in a custom map? Nearly unlimited gold = all Paladins and Angels = death!
____________
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:29 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Archer - upgrade to marksmen
Marksmen - best lvl2 in the game(2-8 dmg is huge), bless them with you hero or inquisitor and they will deal more damage than the magi (7-7) which are lvl 4, not to mention their numbers !!!
Footman - good anti shooter, best to upgrade to squire
Squire - best lvl 3... they can protect almost all you army from ranged attacks (50%) with their shields ... they are not great on the offense but they make up for that with their huge defensive bonus
I think I had several heart attacks when I read that. Marksmen the best level 2? You've got to be joking me. You take 100 Marksmen, and I'll take 100 Blood Furies. You're a shooter and I don't allow retaliation. Sound fair? I'll even let you bless them and I even waste a turn to position my Blood Furies. Your Marksmen will do half damage to me, while I do full damage to you. I have 12 shots (or 12 turns) to kill me; I have unlimited turns to kill you. Each of my Blood Furies have 16 Health; each of your Marksmen have 10 Health.
And Squires, best level 3? I'll take my Master Hunters, you take your Squires. I have 3 turns before you reach me (and this is not taking into account of Warding Arrows!) to do as much damage as I can. Oh, and since I have an initiative of 10, and you have 8, I could possibly get another turn in there. So that's 4 turns before you even touch me.
Okay, all that aside, I agree Haven has some really good units, but they're by no means top tier. The best thing about Haven is Training. Has anyone ever played Heroic against Haven in a custom map? Nearly unlimited gold = all Paladins and Angels = death!
take weekly growth into consideration for those furies ... you'll never have 100 vs. 100, maybe half ...
I dont compare them from the x vs. x point of view ...
Master hunters will have a very tough time against heavan troops since the squires will shield almost the whole army if you place your troops the right way... that's why i vote them best creature ... the hero can't give you this huge protection against ranged if he takes the ability ... you must admit shielding allies gives a huge defensive bonus, against ranged creatures . it makes squires like some mini heroes
|
|
Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:40 PM |
|
Edited by Shauku83 at 17:42, 11 Jul 2006.
|
Quote:
Quote:
You have a wrong formula. Pitlords do 15 + 15 x Spell Power with Meteor Shower
10 Pitlords have spellpower of 15, so Meteor Shower does
15 + 15 x 15 = 240 damage
indeed i have
spell power = 3 + (.32 x no. units) = 6.2
15 x 6.2 = 93 ...
that's how it is at http://www.the-genies-lamp.com/heroes_5_main.htm... i never tested it since i think pit lords are crap, and usually skip them
what is the real formula ?!
i might go for the pit lords if it's like you say it is
I gave you the formula allready It is just that the Spell Power of Pit Lords, or any spellcasters in Heroes 5, is not linear. I'll give you some statistics :
Pit Lords..........Spell Power
1.....................2
2.....................5
3.....................7
5.....................10
7.....................12
10....................15
20....................20
50....................28
And the formula was 15 + 15 x Spell Power for Meteor Shower (5x5 area)
For Fireball it is 14 + 14 x Spell Power (3x3 area)
|
|
Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:41 PM |
|
|
Quote:
take weekly growth into consideration for those furies ... you'll never have 100 vs. 100, maybe half ...
I dont compare them from the x vs. x point of view ...
Master hunters will have a very tough time against heavan troops since the squires will shield almost the whole army if you place your troops the right way... that's why i vote them best creature ... the hero can't give you this huge protection against ranged if he takes the ability ... you must admit shielding allies gives a huge defensive bonus, against ranged creatures . it makes squires like some mini heroes
Okay, if you want your Squires to shield your other units, then you realize that you're making the sacrifice of not really using them offensively, right? I mean, if that's how you play your games and it wins battles for you, that's cool, but in long and drawn out battles, you don't want your units sitting in the back row doing nothing.
I'm not going to argue your opinion because that's just silly. Even then, I'm shocked anytime anyone thinks another level 3 unit is better than the Hunters. I couldn't help but comment.
And about your Marksmen, sure they come in great numbers, but you also lose them in great numbers. That's one major weakness of Haven's lower level units--not enough Health. :/
____________
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 05:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
take weekly growth into consideration for those furies ... you'll never have 100 vs. 100, maybe half ...
I dont compare them from the x vs. x point of view ...
Master hunters will have a very tough time against heavan troops since the squires will shield almost the whole army if you place your troops the right way... that's why i vote them best creature ... the hero can't give you this huge protection against ranged if he takes the ability ... you must admit shielding allies gives a huge defensive bonus, against ranged creatures . it makes squires like some mini heroes
Okay, if you want your Squires to shield your other units, then you realize that you're making the sacrifice of not really using them offensively, right? I mean, if that's how you play your games and it wins battles for you, that's cool, but in long and drawn out battles, you don't want your units sitting in the back row doing nothing.
I'm not going to argue your opinion because that's just silly. Even then, I'm shocked anytime anyone thinks another level 3 unit is better than the Hunters. I couldn't help but comment.
And about your Marksmen, sure they come in great numbers, but you also lose them in great numbers. That's one major weakness of Haven's lower level units--not enough Health. :/
Heaven can play both ways ... Until I cast my spells, i keep my units protected by the shields of the squires, after that they can go. it's not too good to rush all over your enemy most of the times, cause you will be hit by all of his armies while you will hit with only a part of yours. Anyways Squires are not much of an offensive unit.
As for marksmen they have more health then the hunters for week production, and with the 50% bonus from the squires they will kick the hunters so bad you wont even believe it. I think 10 health is ok for a lvl 2 .
|
|
rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 06:36 PM |
|
|
there is still a lot of tweaking to do concerning hero's specials, but, as I see it now - Deleb should be banned on small maps - not really so because it is so vastly overpowered against others but because it is so easy to play her - which reminds me too much of the walk in the park of H3 with a couple of key units. Same goes for Vladimir i.e.
____________
|
|
Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 06:48 PM |
|
|
Are you basing this on fighting neutral creatures? If you place all your units in a clutter for your Squires to protect, you don't think your opponent will use Circle of Winter or Fireball? Or maybe even Meteor Shower?
And on the topic of Hunters, let's not forget that Hunters shoot twice. It doubles their damage!  Oh, beat that, other shooters. And my Hunters don't have to target your Marksmen. My Druids will with Lightningt Bolt. Or, if you put everyone together, they'll Stone Spike. Even better! I don't think Squires are equip to protect against Magic. That specialty belongs to the Unicorns.
Anyway, this discussion really isn't going anywhere and I'm at the end of my post count limit. Play good, boys. Maybe girls, too. My final thoughts on Haven,  higher level units, and  lower level units. If you have a ton of money, Haven's the way to go.
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted July 11, 2006 11:01 PM |
|
|
True,a creature's usefulness cannot be determined by fighting a similar like-leveled creature(having adjusted growth multipliers too).What is most important is the role the creature plays in a battlefield and how good it is at it.Squires are primarily defenders(at least for the first couple of rounds),then tanks with a stunning ability so they usually complement other creatures mainly ranged attackers instead of doing the dirty work themselves.Hunters on the other hand are mostly a standalone creature which is active all the time and is a damage dealer.They cannot be compared but the hunter's role is more essential.
And haven isn't really superior.Only the paladin and imp griffin really stand out and while its creatures compliment each other they are still facing factions with tricky abilities and bigger potential.Haven can't really prevent a teleport assault in its thick formations(hydras or pit lords come to mind),can't counter mark of the damned,can't amass fast archers as a necro his skeleton counterparts,its triple ballista can't counter Sylvan's imbued triple ballista.Also its great defence can be bypassed by hellfire,spells(pit lords again or mark of the wizard/warlock's luck combined with sorcery,master of fire hurts too),flaming arrows etc.I could credit them for being more balanced but not really overpowered.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 08:34 AM |
|
|
Quote:
True,a creature's usefulness cannot be determined by fighting a similar like-leveled creature(having adjusted growth multipliers too).What is most important is the role the creature plays in a battlefield and how good it is at it.Squires are primarily defenders(at least for the first couple of rounds),then tanks with a stunning ability so they usually complement other creatures mainly ranged attackers instead of doing the dirty work themselves.Hunters on the other hand are mostly a standalone creature which is active all the time and is a damage dealer.They cannot be compared but the hunter's role is more essential.
And haven isn't really superior.Only the paladin and imp griffin really stand out and while its creatures compliment each other they are still facing factions with tricky abilities and bigger potential.Haven can't really prevent a teleport assault in its thick formations(hydras or pit lords come to mind),can't counter mark of the damned,can't amass fast archers as a necro his skeleton counterparts,its triple ballista can't counter Sylvan's imbued triple ballista.Also its great defence can be bypassed by hellfire,spells(pit lords again or mark of the wizard/warlock's luck combined with sorcery,master of fire hurts too),flaming arrows etc.I could credit them for being more balanced but not really overpowered.
Why doesn't anyone see that marksmen are trully a powerfull creature?!
2-8 dmg for a lvl 2 is HUGE !!! bless them , and they become really fatal... They have lower hitpoints than other lvl 2 , so you should get vitality... but after you do that they are really the best !
Sure the thick formation has its weakness. But dungeon heroes are spellcasters , so hydras wont dont that much damage against your troops, and after that , they're dead from the marksens precise shot.
Anyway I wouldnt play in a thick formation against dungeon cause they dont have powerfull ranged units, and they might have area spells. Against dungeon, you must trust your might, and go all ofense from the begging.
I don't know about the Pit Lords ... how much damage their meteor shower really does, if the formula on genie is good then they are quite stupid, but if the numbers provided by Shauku83 are the right ones , then they could become a real threat.
Anyway i never said Heaven is overpowered, I just said that they have a little edge. but if the players' skill is equal, that little edge could prove to be the tie breaker.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 09:38 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You have a wrong formula. Pitlords do 15 + 15 x Spell Power with Meteor Shower
10 Pitlords have spellpower of 15, so Meteor Shower does
15 + 15 x 15 = 240 damage
indeed i have
spell power = 3 + (.32 x no. units) = 6.2
15 x 6.2 = 93 ...
that's how it is at http://www.the-genies-lamp.com/heroes_5_main.htm... i never tested it since i think pit lords are crap, and usually skip them
what is the real formula ?!
i might go for the pit lords if it's like you say it is
I gave you the formula allready It is just that the Spell Power of Pit Lords, or any spellcasters in Heroes 5, is not linear. I'll give you some statistics :
Pit Lords..........Spell Power
1.....................2
2.....................5
3.....................7
5.....................10
7.....................12
10....................15
20....................20
50....................28
And the formula was 15 + 15 x Spell Power for Meteor Shower (5x5 area)
For Fireball it is 14 + 14 x Spell Power (3x3 area)
That makes absolutely no sense at all! How can spellpower for creatures be not linear!? That means, essentially, that you will do more damage with two stacks of 20 than with one stack of 50!? If that's correct, it looks like a huge bug in the game.
|
|
TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 09:44 AM |
|
|
it surely isn't for casters ... they are much more effective when they are splitted into many stacks .
7 stacks x 1 archmage deals much more damage than 7 archmages in one stack .
|
|
Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 10:29 AM |
|
|
|
Thats how it has been for Heroes 5, it is no bug. The spells loose effectiveness when amassing huge stacks, but they are relatively more powerful in the earlygame. Splitting stacks is a tactical choise. Simply put : Primary weapon in early game - spellcasting, in the end game - shooting. Pit Lords are exception being melee/caster, but Vorpal Sword alone encourages you to split them.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 10:33 AM |
|
|
*lol*
How stupid. That simply makes no sense at all. After all, your other units don't do less damage just because they are more numerous. It may not be a bug, but for me, making the game like that is completely nonsense.
|
|
Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 10:44 AM |
|
Edited by Shauku83 at 10:46, 12 Jul 2006.
|
Quote:
*lol*
How stupid. That simply makes no sense at all. After all, your other units don't do less damage just because they are more numerous. It may not be a bug, but for me, making the game like that is completely nonsense.
You can also think it like this way : your other units dont't do more damage when splitted into many stacks
|
|
NuWorld
Hired Hero
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 11:08 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Pit Lords are one of the worst lvl 6 , and they will cast Shower only once ... and that wont be very powerfull shower ... just checkout the formula :
15 x spellpower
and spell power = 2+(0.3 * no creatures)
10 pitlords meteor shower = 15 x (2+3) = 75 !!! That's very small damage
sucubbi will be destroyed very fast by the marksmen ( which are protected by the shields of the Squires (%50 reduction) )
Also lets not forget the Imperial Griffins and the inquisitors
Inferno's ranged is not good at all compared to heaven ...
And there is also training ... which can get you a nice boost of archers from paesants
 Pit lord meteor doesn't makes much difference anyway, you missed the point. Marksmen are the last to shoot, so they're as good as dead, succubi eat marksmen for breakfast (2x dmg, 3x HP, chain retaliation), you'll probably loose most of your griffins and squires in round 1 too...there is a thing called initiative...it causes Haven to suck bigtime against Inferno. Haven MUST attack to be effective, because marksmen will be taken out by the opposing ranged units/spells and Inquisitors are IMHO one of the most useless units game has to offer, but for offense you need speed and Haven lacks speed (and initiative). Even otnumbered I give little chance to Haven against Inferno. That's on open battlefield, if beseiged you're in a mouse trap.
____________
|
|
Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 11:13 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Thats how it has been for Heroes 5, it is no bug. The spells loose effectiveness when amassing huge stacks, but they are relatively more powerful in the earlygame.
25+25 separated casters is more powerful than 50 casters as a whole?
I've heard such nonsense in other threads. But after some time of consideration, I must say what a stupid game! Totally against "union is strength"
If it's not an official bug, then I have to accept that those designers are quite stupid . They again messed up the game in another aspect.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 12, 2006 11:23 AM |
|
|
hey, what's the problem? in how many games you can have 50 pitlords?  And even if so, what's the problem in splitting them to two stacks?
btw.. i guess it's a balance issue, since they would wash away half of their army in big numbers :X
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
