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NuWorld
Hired Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 11:28 AM |
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Quote:
there is still a lot of tweaking to do concerning hero's specials, but, as I see it now - Deleb should be banned on small maps - not really so because it is so vastly overpowered against others but because it is so easy to play her - which reminds me too much of the walk in the park of H3 with a couple of key units. Same goes for Vladimir i.e.
You can destroy ballista pretty much at the start of the fight, or am I missing something here?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2006 11:36 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Pit Lords are one of the worst lvl 6 , and they will cast Shower only once ... and that wont be very powerfull shower ... just checkout the formula :
15 x spellpower
and spell power = 2+(0.3 * no creatures)
10 pitlords meteor shower = 15 x (2+3) = 75 !!! That's very small damage
sucubbi will be destroyed very fast by the marksmen ( which are protected by the shields of the Squires (%50 reduction) )
Also lets not forget the Imperial Griffins and the inquisitors
Inferno's ranged is not good at all compared to heaven ...
And there is also training ... which can get you a nice boost of archers from paesants 
 Pit lord meteor doesn't makes much difference anyway, you missed the point. Marksmen are the last to shoot, so they're as good as dead, succubi eat marksmen for breakfast (2x dmg, 3x HP, chain retaliation), you'll probably loose most of your griffins and squires in round 1 too...there is a thing called initiative...it causes Haven to suck bigtime against Inferno. Haven MUST attack to be effective, because marksmen will be taken out by the opposing ranged units/spells and Inquisitors are IMHO one of the most useless units game has to offer, but for offense you need speed and Haven lacks speed (and initiative). Even otnumbered I give little chance to Haven against Inferno. That's on open battlefield, if beseiged you're in a mouse trap.
You're quite right that the Inferno has the advantage of speed, at least for their lower level units - but the Knight will make up for this by gaining abilities like Divine Guidance and Aura Of Swiftness. Imo. Divine Guidance is one of the best abilities - basically, it allows you to make one selected unit take it's turn right after your hero, if the unit hasn't had it's turn in that round - which will help out on your marksmen's initiative. And also, expert Light Magic wiht Mass Haste and Mass Divine Strength will do wonders here as well.
And imo. Succubi are not that great. Their Initiative at 10 is not impressive, and their stats are pretty mediocre, and even though the chain shot can be annoying, it's not likely to do serious damage on second and third strike. Of course, the Ranged Retaliation makes sure that you only target them if you can take out a good part of their numbers.
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erasmo
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 12, 2006 11:49 AM |
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you forget the best overpowered skill in the game, training, the grown of the archers is not only ihis grown, is it plus peasants grow, the cost upgrade peasants to archers is very cheap.
In week 4 and later haven has enought money to upgrade all his peasants and part of footman without problem.
Forget angels they are a lose of money, its better upgrade ur trops, get Dougal and upgrade, u cant lose any game wo take longer than 3 weeks.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted July 12, 2006 12:11 PM |
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Quote:
You can destroy ballista pretty much at the start of the fight, or am I missing something here?
I wasn't aiming at that; I am aiming that the ease of playing Deleb is so stupid; I mean, killing 14 Dread Knights with 2 Pit Fiends and some Imps and Horned Demons? Give me a break. The point in H5 is that it should be difficult at all stages of the game, not a walk in the park as it was in H3 when you got grand elves i.e.
Sure, you can destroy the ballista, but the point is that Deleb will already have skyhigh stats and skills, and bunch of artifacts, and will develop it's town much faster.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 12, 2006 12:46 PM |
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Marksmen vs. Succubi, let's look at the numbers
Marksmen
Attack 4
Defense 4
Damage 2-8
Health 10
Initiative 8
Speed 4
Shots 12
Base Growth 12
Succubus Mistress
Attack 6
Defense 6
Damage 6-13
Health 30
Initiative 10
Speed 4
Shots 6
Base Growth 5
In the Heaven army we have the squires which guard the marksmen, and most of the troops also.
So the dmg received from the succubi will be 1/4 ... because of range penalty and shielding allies of the squire
that comes to 1.5-4.25 dmg for the succubi (+ the chain reaction)
base growth = 5
so we shall have a dmg of 7.5 - 21.25 (+87.5% from the chain reaction)
Also we have to add the bonus from +2 attack (10%) ... not too much , we can ignore it.
1 marksmen will hit with 1-4 dmg
base growth = 12
so the damage per week for the marksmen is 12-48 , much better than the one of the succubi, and still better even if we add the chain reaction ... and that is without taking into consideration training!!!
And heaven also has the inquisitor, which is not a bad at all !
not a huge dmg dealer, but a decent one, so there is no way inferno can stand counter the shooting power and defense of heavan with his succubi;
The PitLords are a one time thing...and there spell damage has to be studied. I'll try them tonight, really curios how much harm they can do. For me the biggest threat of the inferno is the imp, whick can really leave my hevo out of mana , but there is always benediction at 0 cost 
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted July 12, 2006 01:04 PM |
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Not really so. There are a couple of things you have neglected or foreseen:
The initiative of the succubus is 10 compared to 8 of the marksmen. Let as neglect the the A/D ratings, but also training as well - this is not unordinary on many poorer maps; haven by itself is extraordinary expensive, and training is often simply out of your reach.
The growth of the Succubus is 5, marksmen 12: say that we see a combat of 50 succubus against 120 marksmen. The first shoot of the succubus will deal 50*(6-13)=300-650 and kill 30-65 marksmen. Say they kill average, 47. The remaining 73 marksmen can shoot the succubus and will deal 73*(2-8)=146-584 - in average 12 succubus - and then follows the retaliation strike of 38 succubus killing another 38*(6-13) - 36 marksmen and leaving 37, and then another shot because of higher initiative leaving 1. So, in the end, 120 marksmen and 12 succubus dead. And I haven't even calculated chain shot. Ofcourse, this is all based on one on one assumption - true, squires complicate things, but so do many other thing, Pit Lords, Deflect Missile, etc. etc. But this is all theory, combat is another thing.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 12, 2006 01:14 PM |
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Quote:
Not really so. There are a couple of things you have neglected or foreseen:
The initiative of the succubus is 10 compared to 8 of the marksmen. Let as neglect the the A/D ratings, but also training as well - this is not unordinary on many poorer maps; haven by itself is extraordinary expensive, and training is often simply out of your reach.
The growth of the Succubus is 5, marksmen 12: say that we see a combat of 50 succubus against 120 marksmen. The first shoot of the succubus will deal 50*(6-13)=300-650 and kill 30-65 marksmen. Say they kill average, 47. The remaining 73 marksmen can shoot the succubus and will deal 73*(2-8)=146-584 - in average 12 succubus - and then follows the retaliation strike of 38 succubus killing another 38*(6-13) - 36 marksmen and leaving 37, and then another shot because of higher initiative leaving 1. So, in the end, 120 marksmen and 12 succubus dead. And I haven't even calculated chain shot. But this is all theory, combat is another thing.
pls read my post more carefully ... you completely ignore the 50% range penalty for both , and also the shield of the squires , which gives another 50% reduction against ranged ...
so 50 * (6-13) / 4 = 75 - 162.5 , killing on average 12 marksmen
and 108 * (2-8) / 2 = 108 - 432 , killing on average 9 sucubus
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 01:31 PM |
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Heroes Of Theory And Calculations V?..
If you take squires into consideration,maybe take cerberi too, which will reach them faster than they can shot and block them+rape squires with ease?
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 12, 2006 01:37 PM |
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Quote:
Heroes Of Theory And Calculations V?..
If you take squires into consideration,maybe take cerberi too, which will reach them faster than they can shot and block them+rape squires with ease?
exactly my point ... the inferno has to come into enemy lines ...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 01:40 PM |
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it can gate too. No need to waste precious units.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted July 12, 2006 01:43 PM |
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I now I neglected 50% reduction for ranged, I did it delibaretly because it changes nothing, and I did state that I did not take into account squires.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2006 02:02 PM |
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Yeah, but then you will usually put your Marksmen in the corner behind Squires + Conscripts + Griffins or something else. Pretty easy to seal them off completely. I know you can't just do calculations like this, because so much will also depend on the hero skills and abilities (Archery? Light Magic?) and you can use you Inquisitors to cast bless, increasing average damage for Marksmen to 7 or something like that. There are a lot of different points to considered, but all in all, I will say that TowerLord is right - the Marksmen will do a pretty good stand against the Succubi as I see it.
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NuWorld
Hired Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 02:20 PM |
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And when they come you'd wish they weren't  Let put spells aside, you have to take into a consideration that with gating only you'll have to face 12-13 enemy stacks which gives Inferno much more tactical options with an increased number of creatures ranging from 40-100%.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 02:27 PM |
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Quote:
hey, what's the problem? in how many games you can have 50 pitlords?  And even if so, what's the problem in splitting them to two stacks?
btw.. i guess it's a balance issue, since they would wash away half of their army in big numbers :X
Well, I'm not just talking about Pit Lords, I'm talking about casters.
That's not a problem, that's just very very stupid.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 02:38 PM |
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Quote:
pls read my post more carefully ... you completely ignore the 50% range penalty for both , and also the shield of the squires , which gives another 50% reduction against ranged ...
so 50 * (6-13) / 4 = 75 - 162.5 , killing on average 12 marksmen
and 108 * (2-8) / 2 = 108 - 432 , killing on average 9 sucubus
From these results I must conclude that Haven is hopelessly overpowered .
Can anyone find solutions to get rid of a legion of marksmen?
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted July 12, 2006 02:59 PM |
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What about Mass Confusion?
anyways:
Split casters SHOULD do more damage, it's just logical. Both from strategy and design perspective.
(strategy: you use one more slot!, design: more casters - harder to work together, all those fireballs will overlapse, etc)
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted July 12, 2006 03:17 PM |
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Quote:
What about Mass Confusion?
anyways:
Split casters SHOULD do more damage, it's just logical. Both from strategy and design perspective.
(strategy: you use one more slot!, design: more casters - harder to work together, all those fireballs will overlapse, etc)
I agree with this ... but I still say casters are a little undepowered when they reach high numbers . I think it is not fair that at a certain point their ofensive spells become useless compared to their ranged attack .... that is not very nice 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 12, 2006 03:21 PM |
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It wouldn't make much sense to allow an opponent amass such a horde then.But there are ways to decrease their effectiveness:Fire/acidbreath on 1st round,most dark spells(esp confusion,frenzy),warding arrows,master of ice/storms(if lucky which can buy some time),avenger or evasion...Of course each and every solution you may find has flaws and may be too random to fully depend on but it is virtually impossible to fight an army with legion or marksmen AND all other haven stacks(much less in good numbers or even upgraded).I doubt you will ever encounter something like that unless with map editor or your opponents find a pandora's box containing 1.000.000.(Who knows?It may be implemented again! )
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2006 04:54 PM |
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Quote:
What about Mass Confusion?
anyways:
Split casters SHOULD do more damage, it's just logical. Both from strategy and design perspective.
(strategy: you use one more slot!, design: more casters - harder to work together, all those fireballs will overlapse, etc)
That's no more of an argument than saying that 1000 archers should do less damage because their arrows collide in the air (or something like that). That's not how the game works, it's not supposed to be realistic, and I think it's devastating for gameplay that you will actually do greater damage with your casters if you group them into several groups and then leave out some other units.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 04:58 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 17:01, 12 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
That's no more of an argument than saying that 1000 archers should do less damage because their arrows collide in the air (or something like that). That's not how the game works, it's not supposed to be realistic, and I think it's devastating for gameplay that you will actually do greater damage with your casters if you group them into several groups and then leave out some other units.
I on the otherhand find it refreshing. It is actually now more usefull to use more than one Super_Duper Main hero, than what is was in Heroes 3. I always thought that more advantage should be given to them, who make several armies instead of the dull "all creatures to one hero and bam" approach.
edit: The devs initially made it that if you took all creatures from castle your creatures had very little room to deploy themselves during the tactics phase. It was a good idea, but that made the combat size so small that it crippled strategy on that end. Anyways the aim there was the same, that it wouldn't be wise to amass all creatures to one hero.
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