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| Thread: Macedonia what do you belive??? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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GenieLord
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Legendary Hero
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posted April 04, 2008 08:25 PM |
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It's a bit weird to quote myself, but:
Quote:
I think that Baklava has a point, but I don't think that the way the mods treat Vidoja is unfair.
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Homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
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posted April 05, 2008 02:32 PM |
- penalty applied by VokialBG on 08 Apr 2008. |
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FOR THOSE "WE" ARE SEEKING A NAME FOR " MACEDONIA "
THE NAME OF THAT AREA BEFORE WORLD WAR II WAS VARDARSKA
THE NAME MACEDONIA WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY THEIR CRYPTO-JEWISH LEADER JOSEF BROSTEIN (THE YUGOSLAV LEADER KNOWN AS TITO).
A FEW NOTES FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW:
1. ALEXANDER THE GREAT AND HIS TEACHER ARISTOTLE SPOKE HELLENIC. NOT ANY SLAVIC LANGUAGE.
2. THE CAPITAL OF ANCIENT MACEDONIA WAS PELLA(GREECE). NOT SKOPJE.
3. ALEXANDER'S SISTER WAS CALLED THESSALONIKI. NOT SOLUN LIKE THE SLAV(E)S CALL IT.
4. VOUKEFALAS WAS CALLED ALEXANDER'S HORSE. NOT A ZASTAVA.
For their precious Alexander these notes.I don't want to claim that Alexander is my ancestor.He made one the most imperialistics campaigns.Likely or not he was greek.They have no right to claim he wasn't.They have no right to steal others history.And now the map that shows their little from all "sides" country.
Enough with their joke.
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I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
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Homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
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posted April 05, 2008 02:36 PM |
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I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
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VokialBG
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First in line
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posted April 05, 2008 03:03 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 15:04, 05 Apr 2008.
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Quote:
1) NO insults, abuse, racism or sexism.
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6) NO provocation or aggravaion.
HoMaM, take it easier, this patriotism and nationalism is raising to racism and something really bad, also please don't use caps (to show it) and anger (and if we have to add your double posting... your post is deserving penalty and silence for few days) if Angelino does not penalize you I can do it too. Please change a bit your last post (The text post not the map and better merge them).
Thanks.
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Homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
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posted April 05, 2008 03:18 PM |
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Yeah i know and i kno about nationalism and all these.About my post it was an email they send me and i just post it like it was copy paste.I've read that before i post it of course.But it sounded good to me.If you think that it should be penaltized you are free to do it or even if you think it's a racism or nationalistic or ultranationalistic post please delete it.I don't want my post to make any problems.But i strongly believe that all i have written in this topic are not my "extreme"(?) thoughts.All are facts.When i write my personal thought i make it clear.
But all i mentioned are facts.The only thing i regret in the post is the word Slav(e)s it wasn't mine and i'm sorry i didn't pay attention to it and correct it.
That's all i have to say and if i was a fyromian i would have been insulted from this post.But my feelings to this issue are much emotional.Like as greek i feel insulted of what they say
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I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted April 05, 2008 09:26 PM |
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HoMaM, yuo really shouldn't feel so distressed about it. I agree with you, but don't act so overproudly and don't feel so attacked. Frustration is not a crime, but should be avoided. Not that I'm a lawfull person ,but frustration will only lead to banning and thus silencing you from telling the truth. I understand your point and I hope the others understood is a well. But hey, that's the point of a forum: Discussing themes and exchanging points of view; just don't feel that insulted. And I you do feel insulted, relativize istead of retalialating. Just giving some good advice 
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
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posted April 05, 2008 10:37 PM |
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Oh you are in Greece with school?I have seen many foreign students around these days. I bet you stay near omonoia square in Solonos street in Exarhia!Am i right?
Anyway your school is great for greek standards.When i was at school the only place we were visiting was the local park!And one time in the last schoolyear we went in Thessaloniki for 5 days  but abroad??!!!They couldn't even take us to the parthenon.And i'm 20 and i haven't seen it yet from inside!And it's free entrance for me bc i'm in college.I hope i'll manage visit it before my free ticket expired!
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I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
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Lexxan
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Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted April 05, 2008 10:45 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 22:46, 05 Apr 2008.
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Oh you are in Greece with school?I have seen many foreign students around these days. I bet you stay near omonoia square in Solonos street in Exarhia!Am i right?
Anyway your school is great for greek standards.When i was at school the only place we were visiting was the local park!And one time in the last schoolyear we went in Thessaloniki for 5 days but abroad??!!!They couldn't even take us to the parthenon.And i'm 20 and i haven't seen it yet from inside!And it's free entrance for me bc i'm in college.I hope i'll manage visit it before my free ticket expired!
I'll fly to Greece tomorrow, and NO I'll not stay in Exarhia, but in Nauplio (I hope I spelled it right) and Delphi. Btw all student had to pay aproxamately €560 each . So I hope it is worth it. Btw2: No offence, but Flemish (from Flanders, the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium) schools are in the top 5 of worlds best school, so mine will probably be better than yours . Btw This is for the Six grade ONLY. (other stay in Belgium, except the fifth Grad, who go to London). I've heard of other school which organize trips (or GWP s, as we call them) not only to Greece or England but also France, Germany, Italy, Spain. In fact, out school is rather lousy, but they still picked a dream holiday I hope (for them) 
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
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posted April 05, 2008 10:53 PM |
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Nafplio was the first capital of modern Greece.Not to forget to climb the 999 stairs.You would be awarded of your effort in the end because of the amazing view!
I haven't visit delfi yet but i'm sure you will have a great time especially if you fancy at the ancient monuments temples and history.
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I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 08, 2008 05:15 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 23:32, 08 Apr 2008.
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What's in a name?
@ Doomforge:Quote:
I think any kind of problem concerning how the country is NAMED is ridiculous, I mean it doesn't change a damn thing even if they name it the Republic of Pink Fluffy Pillows.
Would you mind if Poland was renamed the Republic of Pink Fluffy Pillows? What about your countrymen, would they second the change in a possible referendum? What if Poland was to be called the Republic of Pink Fluffy Gays? You wouldn't care - you know it's not true. What about Polackia? Suddenly it matters?
Name is an important part of national and ethnic identity, which is often an important part of one's personal identity.
Even when you are not aware of it, your identity plays a significant role: for example, the fact that you, Doomforge, are able to dismiss the problem in question as ridiculous relates to the fact that you are Polish, or rather - that you are not Greek or Macedonian.
Back on topic, the name is one of the things that make a nation. Although there are disputes about the actual definition, it is usually considered that people of the same nation share some of these: common descent, language, culture, territory and religion. I admit the concept is vague and indeed there are many exceptions, but that is the general idea.
Common descent, language and ethnicity of present-day Macedonians have been questioned by some Bulgarians, who claim the former are part of their nation. Their sovereignity has been endangered not only by virtually all the neighbours, but also from within - by the restless Albanian minority. Serbian Orthodox Church has been in conflict with the Macedonian one over the latter's autocephaly. Now Greece objects even to their name.
The young Macedonian state is a very fragile one - that's why the crisis should be taken seriously.
Other than that, I do agree with you in every way it matters. This whole nationalist necrophilia is absurd, but must not be taken lightly.
@ HoMaMQuote:
But all i mentioned are facts.
Is the sentence about Tito being a crypto-Jew also a fact? He was half Croat, half Slovenian, but a Yugoslav above all. But never mind that. Instead, please tell me what difference it would make if he were a Jew. Do I smell some conspiracy theories and antisemitism maybe...?Quote:
The only thing i regret in the post is the word Slav(e)s it wasn't mine and i'm sorry i didn't pay attention to it and correct it.
There is an option to edit your posts, but obviously you didn't feel like it. Instead, this ethnic slur has been standing there for days.
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VokialBG
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First in line
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posted April 08, 2008 08:41 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 08:47, 08 Apr 2008.
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... Like as greek i feel insulted of what they say...
As bulgarian "I feel insulted of what they say" sometimes, but it doesn't mean that the insulted have to insult them, right? I can give millions of well known facts about the "macedonian nation", but its better for me if I stay neutral, if they want to call them Macedonia, no problem with me, if they want to stay separately as independent state, well its their choice. I'm just insutled, because I'm calling them brothers but they are calling me "mongol, tatar" and others (they probably mean barbarian with this) without any reason. But do I need to call them "slaves" or whatever are you calling them?
You are insulting half of the world, dear! Like the text in your post, but don't post it, its full with chauvinism. Patriotism is something good if you don't abuse with it. Patriots love the motherland, but they don't hate the others, this is chauvinism. And chauvinism is the cause of all wars, hunger and problems in the poor countries.
I'll give you penalty for the post (since 2 days passed, and you did not changed anything), if you do the corrections I'll insist on Angelito to remove it. If you don't... please don't take it personally as I warned you, you know the CoC's also.
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Homam
Known Hero
Sailor of the open seas
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posted April 08, 2008 01:01 PM |
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Nop.It doesn't matter.If my post was again the CoC i won't change nothing in order to remove the penalty.I'll see that as a "punishment" to my chauvinism or nationalistic post.I gave the explanations about it and i have nothing else to change or add.I would try to limit myself in the future in such issues.The last i want is to be a nationalist who makes troubles.
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Svarog_undead
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 19, 2008 12:51 AM |
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Wow, this thread is so full of hate and nationalist illusions and plain ignorance from everyone involved (save Vlaad), I dont know where to start.
Look, greek boy, its been a long time since I argued with any half-baked kid on the internet and tried to prove things, so I most certainly dont intend to do that.
You can consider yourself lucky to be one of the miniscule number of Greeks to encounter a real Macedonian, of the "hated, barbaric, uneducated tribe of Slavs, not worthy to even dream of pure greek blood (unaltered since Alexander)", who just so happens to be not nationalist and with a fairly good knowledge of balkan history, so consequently able to offer you a new perspective of things, only if you have an open mind and a tiny bit of scientific curiosity for truth. You can choose to read what I provide, think for yourself, do some your own research and rise above the nationalist hysteria thats currently engulfing both our countries, or you can disregard everything, spam me with boring anti-macedonian slogans (which I know all too well, absolutely nothing new for me there) and continue living your life as a fyrom-hating greek. You choose.
Here's an article I wrote 3 years ago, which deals with how Macedonians view their history. [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=10&TID=12902]Macedonians; who were they, who are they?[/url]
From present perspective, I would change some things, relativize some statements, but in general it does represent events "objectively". Make sure not to skip the part about the Hellenization in Macedonia after 1913 and the Macedonian exodus of 1948.
Heres an interview (in Greek) with a prominent macedonian artist, who quite eloquently explains the macedonian argumentation in the name dispute:
[url=http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=113,id=45439232]http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=113,id=45439232[/url]
The reason why this discussion always will be a problem on the Balkans is because people have a very wrong idea about what is a nation. Their conceptions of identities are stationary, national-romantic, essentialist (which comes close enough to racist) and seek their legitimization in ancient powerful states and illusionary national continuity. As long as people dont revise these national-ideological positions we cant have a coherrent discussion that would bring any results.
-For the record, I have a few Greek freinds, with whom I agree almost entirely on the entire issue, which proves that its not a matter of national perspective, but rather a nationalistIC perspective.
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Svarog_undead
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 19, 2008 01:03 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 05:59, 14 Aug 2010.
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Heres my private correspondence with my greek friend (not THAT private obviously ), which shows how two reasonable people can reach an agreement without any problems. Which begs the question, why the hell politicians cant, shouldnt they be much more educated and cooperative than normal citizens, or do they just blindly follow populist nationalist reflexes of the general public in order to stay in power?
ME:
My greek friend:
8:49pm Apr 11th
Hey man Glad to hear you are in easily one of the most exciting cities in Europe and having a good time. Until when are you staying there? Do you miss Harvard?
As for the veto, I think I belong to the glorious 2(!) % of Greeks who do not care if FYROM is recognized as Macedonia. You have to realize this does not make me any friends back home. Batzilis is the only other person I can think of in my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances who shares similar views, so it's pretty much an issue Greeks across the political spectrum agree that veto is the only realistic and quite desirable option. The reason is that the nationalists on both sides have captured the issue and set the agenda engaging in directly confrontational diplomacy.
To answer your question, yes, I believe Greece will keep vetoing until the Macedonian government accepts the term New or Northern Macedonia or until something else happens I cannot think of. I do have to point out, however, that siding with the Americans in such a blatant way did not help you guys with the Greek left -Macedonia's natural allies for a moderate solution. And as you saw, the Americans did not fare very well in Bucharest. To be honest, I was surprised myself with how easy it was to get the veto through.
I am back in Thessaloniki myself and I am getting a little disillusioned with the ability of the people in the region to see themselves, their past and their future in constructive ways. I hope people like us will find the things that unite and don't divide.
Cheers!
3:13pm Apr 12th
i'm staying here til august 1st. german semester starts on monday and ends then. i dont miss harvard (haha good one )), thou i do miss some people there for sure.
btw, i think ur ex roommate (kudret) moved into my room while at the beginning of last semester, and i had to stay in my roommates room for some two weeks because i had problems getting a german visa, so we had 3 people living in a 2people "apartment" for a while.
the veto really hit here big time. just today the parlament disbanded itself and they are having early elections in a month or so. its more an opportunist moment for leading parties to strengthen their majority, than reaction to the veto, but they found it to be a nice ocasion for such thing. but bad things sometimes happen during elections here. not to mention nationalist rethorics. anti-greek sintiment is sweeping the country, some boycott greek firms, i think its getting much harder now to reach a compromise.
on the fun side, dora bakoyani has become a major political character in macedonian political cartoons with a strong nationalist spin. woody alen makes a guest appearance in this one (in the middle of the video), i think u'll appreciate it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diVuEFFl5jo&feature=RecentlyWatched&page=1&t=t&f=b
or here, dora again in bed with a stupid swimmer of ours, who (in all earnest or poking fun, i dont know) proposed to make friends with dora in order to help solve the name problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsRGhrHSvZI
and a hilarous serious idea by the skopje mayor, to name the major city park "George Bush", in gratitude for his support (wtf?! lol). joke proposals followed to name public bathrooms bakoyanni or karamanlis.
american support did come in handy when european foreign policy didnt give a snow. u r not suggesting we had better sided with the greek left, are u. )
well anyway, i can easily imagine myself falling in even less than 2% when it comes to history interpretation and national identity issues. I do not however support accepting any name just so we can get into nato and "prevent a cataclysm", as few "pro-european intellectuals" here suggest.
there are usually few theories why greece opposes so starkly the name 'macedonia' and the use of the term 'maceodnian':
1. the historical right on the region's (esp ancient) heritage.
2. to conceal the exodus of the slavic macedonians after 1948/ their assmilation into slavophone greeks from 1913 onwards, thus making it sort of a 'bad conscience' argument, and a greek national identity building project issue
3. present motives to (a) deny existance of any native ethnic minorities in greece, like vlachs, turks including ethnic macedonians, and (b) denial of ethnic macedonian refugees the right on their abandoned property (at least those few still living)
4. fear of irredentist intentions on our behalf.
People here dismiss 4 as silly and ungrounded, 2 and 3 get more credit than 1. I personally think 1 is more important for greeks and 3 is somewhat farfetched.
What do u think is like in Greece? I dont expect 2 plays any role in public opinion of course, but do you think it is important for greek policy-makers? Do you think that greek politicians realize that 4 is ungrounded, but still abuse it to keep a tense climate? Is 1 or 4 more important for the greek public what keeps them away from accepting 'Republic of Macedonia"?
wow, i wrote so much i'm not sure it'll fit in fb. ) but it'd be interesting to hear what u think.
-goran
6:54pm Apr 12th
Haha, the two cartoons are hilarious, especially the Woody Allen spoof. I have to say I detect some sexism there though Mrs. Bakoyanni, or simply Dora, is actually quite popular in Greece and some say she might be the next PM following a venerable Greek tradition of family politics (you might have heard of her father, Mitsotakis, who was the PM when Macedonia was in the process of becoming a recognized state).
First of all, why don't politicians in Macedonia accept North or New Macedonia? I think this is what Greek diplomats are now proposing.
To answer your question, I think that yes, 1 and 4 are the most important issues when it comes to the Greek PUBLIC OPINION. People get pissed off because they are shown some obscure maps and historical texts that talk about the Great Macedonia and Alexander the Great as the direct ancestors of modern Macedonians. So both culturally and in terms of national sovereignty the Greeks get antsy.
Furthermore, When you guys side with the Americans the Greeks see their conspiracy theories proven - imagine, they say, one of the frequent unstable moments in Balkan history when we will have to realign and find ourselves on opposite camps. We should make sure there is no legitimate claim to make on territories in that moment. The Slavic and more recently the Albanian danger backed by ignorant Americans is a recurring theme of the Greek Right. The Left, as you pointed out correctly, harbors similar sentiments against the Americans and this is why you see the amazing percentages of 95% in favor of the veto.
3, to the best of my knowledge, is not an issue at all. I really do not know about the status of property of Slavic Macedonians and I guess the Greek state can say that there was some kind of a state of emergency given that there was a Civil War or sfind some other legal loophole. As for the other minorities, the official position on Turks is that an ethnic minority exists but that they are Greek citizens and that's that. No Slavic nor Vlach minority is recognized and we are talking about less than a handful thousand people here who are well integrated into the Greek society. In any case, there is no such coverage by the Greek media and I do not think it is an issue because if it was they could not have concealed it for so long. What could be an issue is the Macedonian side saying there are Slavic Macedonians who are being repressed and that would piss off the Greeks.
2 is related, but you have to understand that the Greek politicians have an interesting legacy on this. During th Greek Civil War in 1946-9 the Communists (eventually the side that lost) had officially advocated the creation of a Pan-Macedonian state to mobilize Slavic-speaking troops. This backfired big time among Greeks and the Laws of War made sure that these guys as well as many ethnically Greek populations who were Communists were expelled from Greece for decades. Nobody conceals that this happened, many people have friends whose parents fled or were forced to go to Yugoslavia, Russia, Hungary, Romania etc. after the Civil War. They were the losers of the War and these were rough times, but I think the fear lingers more as a historical memory of what irresponsible politicians can do rather than as a direct threat from Slavomacedonians. This whole thing is of course part of strong identity building, but I really understand why people might be sensitive and freak out. And politicians are of course there to tap into these sentiments.
My opinion is that you guys have a claim to the name Macedonia and that for the sake of history and your good neighbors you should accept the name North Macedonia/New Macedonia. If Greece had a population of 1 person, Michalis Moutselos, you could call yourselves whatever you want, but that's not the case so you might have to make this concession. In my opinion, university Professors should also be the only ones to consult over historical issues, but that's also not the case in the Balkans or anywhere really. Given the circumstances, we have to learn to live with our faults, Greeks and Macedonians.
11:14pm Apr 14th
u detect sexism, are you kidding? Of course u detect sexism, we're on the balkans, what do u expect - swedish liberalism? )
Dora is a really cunning and intelligent woman, u gotta give it to her.. she manages to make the greek position sound plausible and make us look like the uncooperative bad guys, which is why even many macedonians have shown respect for her diplomatic skills. maceodnian politicians on the other hand are shmucks.
today an interview with a popular macedonian film director was published in "Elephterotipia", I think he presents the aspect of the problem that our politicians never mention (because, as i said they're incompetent shmucks), and sums up well the essence of our arguments i think. link:
http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=113,id=45439232
when i read ur argumentation, it makes me feel like there could be a solution at sight, only if our stubborn politicians could communicate their positions better. But i'm afraid there lies a negatory policy towards ethnic macedonian identity at the heart of this, and no concessions on our side, except giving up our macedonian national identity (meaning, more than just the name), would suffice for a final resolvement.
The issue of our name for us is unavoidably connected with our national identity. I believe that in principle we could swallow being called "Upper" or "New" Macedonia, with the (in)appropriate international pressure campaign (even thou i wouldnt guarantee, since people find this to be plain insulting and injust, plus the west lost a lot of credibility especially after the veto, but thinking as pure pragmatics, who knows, they just might), but only insofar as Greece accepts the existance of ethnic macedonians as a nation, i.e. doesnt monopolize the use of the term "Macedonian", so we could call ourselves Macedonians in int. organizations and our language Macedonian. This is our central concern, without this, there will never be a solution, no matter what greece does to harm us. People believe that the Greek historical project consists of negating the existance of the Maceodnians as people (therefore solely appropriates the entire heritage of Macedonia, even though since 6th century onwards until after the Balkan Wars the majority of the population was slavic, especially the inland and the countryside, meaning outside thessalonika, where it was mainly jewish, then turkish and greek).
This is how 2 is intimately connected with 1, which addmitedly plays such a big role in greek public opinion. If the exodus is denied, greeks feel they have the right to claim macedonia as historically greek. That is why you guys always speak of "slavpohone greeks" (i'm not talking about present-day slavophones who have been raised in modern greece as greeks, but rather the generations before the civil war who never felt greek) and not of ethnic macedonians. Recognizing the existance of ethnic macedonians (rather than slavophone greeks) would mean that these people too have a right on the cultural heritage of macedonia (and since this number 1 reason is so important for greeks), thats why greece cant afford to do it. At least thats the maceodnian nationalist/pessimist position, which implies that we could never reach a common solution.
If you're right thou, and greece doesnt have anything against admitting that slavic maceodnians as such once lived on that territory (and therefore admit the exodus and assimilation that changed that fact) then reason 1 simply doesnt hold anymore, since then maceodnians are equally as greeks, if not even more due to sheer numbers, entitled to the macedonian historical heritage. Its simply the historical truth Greece in that case would have to accept. We, on the other hand, would have to stop treating greece as an outside conquerer, since we werent a country then in the first place. First come, first take, as they say, and we have the right to only hold a grudge against greece because of the treatment we got afterwards. We should stop appropriating alexander (sometimes this takes ridicilous forms here) and leave the whole thing to the historians. tracing national identity that long ago is stupid and illusiory. We should agree to work with greece on a joint history project in schools.
And we should ensure greece that we have no territorial pretentions towards her, although this last thing we already did when we changed our constitution in 1993 and put exaclty that formulation in it, specifically to meet greek demands. So in all earnest, this argument is so much abused by greek politicians for political elections gains, its almost frustrating, because we're at the receiving end of the nationalist hysteria which develops in greece as a consequence. Its unthinkable for a country to have "legitimate claims on territory" as you say, just because of the name it has (how do u find the idea that US invades mexico, solely on the basis that "united states of AMERICA" therefore entire America, implies a legitimate claim "to unite all states on the American continent". Its that much unworthy for refutation.
the point with 3 is that when the law for civil war refugees in greece was brought and they were allowed to return, they could do that only if they declared themselves greeks. therefore many macedonians were not allowed to return and claim the property they had left (my since recently late grandparents included). There might not be a coverage by the media, but there are few thousand slavic macedonians that are NOT well integrated in greek society, precisely becuase they declare themselves as such. Not only they have no support from the state to maintain their identity, but they are under constant pressure from unofficial public to hide and not publicly display it. (see 'vinozhito' party website if interested for examples) Anyway, i agree that they're insignificant number and cant be a real "threat" no matter what they aks from Greece (and truth is, they dont ask much at all).
Other minorities: as far as I know, only "Muslims" are recognized, not specifics "Turks, Roma, Pomaks" etc. These word games were also once part of the assimilatory agedna of metaxas to have muslim greeks, slavophone greeks, vlach-speaking greeks etc, but i guess the muslim element proved to be too incompatible with the greek national ideal, so they did eventually recognize a "muslim minority", but still - a religious rather then ethnic minority. Henceforth, use of the term "Turkish" to describe a minority is forbidden in Greece, poeple have been sent to prison for that even(!): http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/access_courts/European%20Community/sadik_greece.html
wow, this might come across as somewhat anti-greek there , because I allowed myself to play arguments against each other, rather than just reiterate the positions. But its up to u to see what makes sense and what does not, and fact is, sometimes justice does take sides. I dont think I'm anti-greek, sadly so many people in Macedonia are currently. I think I'm as much anti-greek, as one could be anti-german when they rant against the holocaust for example. (in no way am I comparing the extent of injustices here, only the logic!) I hope this text helps you better understand our frustrations with Greek politics. As much as I disagree with maceodnian nationalists on all issues, I could never justify ethnic cleansing and political bullying, talking as a hard-core lefty here. ) So an interesting question for me is: would a history lesson make the greeks review their position and make an "unfair compromise" possible (even a solution such as Upper Macedonia, with the provision that we'd be allowed to call ourselves "Macedonians"), or is the nationalist mythology in greece so strong, that any mention of these events would radicalize greek position even further realizing its implications (that Macedonia is NOT only Greek)?
regards man, i appreciate this discussion, find it more interesting than all the crap im reading in the news on the subject every day.
-goran
9:49am Apr 15th
Very good reply, man. I am always reminded I should do more homework on the issue, although I know more history on this just by reading random stuff than 99.9% of Greeks rather than by being interested in this as a Greek Macedonian (I am not that interested, to the bitterness of my Greek friends).
I have to disagree on one historical fact: I don't think the Greek state ever called the slavophone population "Greek", because it was afraid of a separate "Macedonian" identity. It did so in the aftermath of wars (Balkan Wars, WW I, Greek Civil War) to hellenize Slavophone populations. There was no Macedonian identity back then during the Ottoman period and despite the attempts of our Patriarchate and the Bulgarian Exarchate people still defined themselves in terms of religion and language. The fear was mostly Bulgaria, actually. In fact, many people here think that the "Macedonian" identity is very recent, a post-War construct.
You might think this is semantics, but in the minds of Greeks it is not. First, it renders the claims of Macedonia (the current country) over the history and culture of the region unthinkable. Second, it makes people say: look these were rough times and various "projects" (to Hellenize, Bulgarize, Turkify) were all the rage in the Balkans, not to mention elsewhere in the world. Eventually, this was determined by weapons and in some cases Greeks won (Balkan Wars) and in other cases they lost big time (War in Turkey in 1921-2). Greeks know very well what an Exodus means (2 million of them who lived there for 3,000 years were forced to leave Turkey in 1922 including my great-Grandparents, ironically...), but the difference is that they say they cannot blame the Turks or say it was unjust or ethnic cleansing since it was the outcome of the War. Not to mention that the 1913 thing was an exchange of populations (lots of ethnic Greeks left Bulgaria as well)
My take on this is: the Greeks see those Wars as victorious (against the Bulgarians and Turks in the first case, against the Communists in the second case) and they will not accept the argument that they committed ethnic cleansing ( and for God's sake we did not kill anybody systematically like the Turks as far as I know) or that they somehow owe anything to modern Macedonians in the light of modern theories about multiculturalism. Their argument is: it is so obvious that these were life-or-death years that you cannot say we were the culprits of anything extraordinary. However, we have recognized (finally and pragmatically, I think) the right of your country to call yourselves whatever you want based on your historical experience as long as it is not done in an exaggerated way (see Alexander the Great stuff) and as long as it had the geographical determinant in the international name since Greeks also have a share (and according to the nationalist discourse, the largest by far share) in the history and culture of the region. Again, I personally would not care as I do not see history or culture in the zero-sum way imposed by the nationalist discourse, but the greek public does and the greek government has to obey. And I think the situation is better, much better now, because many Greeks have realized that recognition of Macedonian identity is pretty much a fait accompli internationally and are getting a little tired with all that crap (many, esp. in the South and among the elites simply want to do business). My feeling is that if you guys recognize yourselves as Upper/Northern Macedonia and continue calling yourselves Macedonians it will be all right with us and the rest of the world will call you Macedonia anyways, even though not officially. If the issue is one of internal consumption for Greeks (as I think it is), they will run out of arguments and leverage there and then.
Tell me what you think of this, and if you guys would be willing to trade the constitutional name for good neighbourly relations with Greece. Also, do you think the name will be an issue in the elections? Greek media say it is and there is no way negotiations with Nimetz can continue during the campaign. What is your take on this?
4:46am Apr 16th
those are all valid points mihalis. Macedonian national identity was very weak in ottoman times, especially among the villiger population. But maceodnian national movement began in the very late XIX (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization formed in 1894), hardly a post-war period, which puts us some 50 to 100 years (in the case of greece) behind everyone else, which is why we were so vulnerable to neighbouring expansionist policies. Anyway, I dont think the debate over legitimacy of nations to exist should take the form of tracing their roots all the way back to the Big Bang. This is a dumb specifically Balkan phenomenon.
macedonian identity is a construct as much as greek identity is, in the sense that national identity as such is an artificial concept of the XIX century. Not in the sense that "Tito created it", although he did help strenthen it by recognizing macedonia as a constituent republic in the yugoslav federation. macedonian identity emerged in late XIX/ early XX century "on its own", out of the global social context of emerging nation-states, and more locally, the aggresive Balkan nationalisms whose interests clashed in maceodnia (necessity of identification of "the other(s)" in order to define "the self"). Maceodnia as a geographic, economic entity of course contributed to the emergence of a seperate macedonian national identity. To which extent it was also ethnic is a more delicate question (and the essence of our debate-problem with the bulgarians), but that it was national is quite clear i think.
Now it appears that our identity which was developed when maceodnia was one region with majority slavs (althou, maceodnian national idea was never ethnically prescriptive), when it was very logical to develop as such, has the same name with one of greece's provinces of today and that upsets the greeks, but we didnt choose it ourselves, our forefathers did, as much as we'd want to avoid having a helpful neighbour such as greece, we have a historical luggage with which we were born.
-I think u'll find there are few more differences between the (slavic) macedonian exodus from 1948 and the greek exodus from 1922, but i dont want to sound too melodramatic describing details (personal example: my grandma's villige was burned to the ground). Its not ethnic cleansing in the 1990 balkans slaughtering sense of course, but that territory's landscape was profoundly transformed culturally and ethnically. It wasnt genocide, but it was culturocide. Greece HASNT recognized this, and it will be a long time till she does. Maybe it was not extraordinary for the time, that's still not an excuse not to join the club of countries that have already apologized, or at least recognized their actions from this period. I dont believe in historical debts, but I do believe in historical truth. Greece owes us the truth, and in light of that truth I dont think it would''ve been as easy to use the veto, as it was under the guise of national mythology.
I think if a proposal like you describe comes, it might/should be acceptable, thou reluctanly so. personally, it sounds offending to me, i would put it in brackets )
we're not trading our constitutional name as such. that would hardly change. we're negotiating our name for international communication (and bilateral, maybe) only.
the name will most certainly be a huge topic in the elections, spiced with heated nationalist rethorics that gain more votes. Elections will defocus us not only from negotiations but also from the EU reform agenda, which is why me (and many other people) think they are stupid idea. Which begs the question, why did the primeminister decide to have them anyway> official explanation: to cash in his current huge rating advantadge in front of the knocked out opposition and clear the road for smooth adoption of reforms. Concpiracy theory: to avoid responsibility for an already arranged deal for the name. Probable reason: anticipating settlement of the name problem before the next election (and henceforth getting more unpopular with his electorate (right-wingers)) he wants to ensure another 4 years in time before its too late. In either case, it is a stupid idea which goes from narrow party interests, rather than national ones.
btw, i'm taking a course in german history here, and i' mthinking of exploring the german archives on their relation and position to the Macedonian question in 1913 for my final seminar.
-goran
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Svarog_undead
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 19, 2008 01:08 AM |
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btw, Vlad hows it going man? Did u eventually move to the US with your fair lady?
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