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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 02:07 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 14:09, 23 Oct 2023.
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Geny said:
It's been a while, so I might be misremembering things, but I'm pretty sure that Israel preferred Fatah to rule Gaza, just like they do in the West Bank. Not Hamas.
Hamas's rise to power is associated with the intrigues of the Israeli intelligence services. In general, every time there was a prospect of normalizing the situation (the same Fatah, for example) and creating something similar to a Palestinian state, Israel every time prevented this (and you did everything to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state, for example, through bribing Palestinian leaders). You live illegally on foreign lands and still dare to impose your conditions. You forced the Palestinians onto reservations, just as the Americans once did with the Indians. Whatever one may say, this is all a disgusting story.
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Blizzard
Adventuring Hero
May Contain Nuts
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posted October 23, 2023 02:17 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 14:38, 23 Oct 2023.
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I think the topic of Israel/Palestine is a tough one that doesn’t currently have any ideal options. Here are some overall thoughts from me.
Hamas was the elected government in 2006. Again: 2006. Over 15 years ago. That is when they gained administrative control and they have not let go ever since. So, calling Hamas the elected government comes with a large grain of salt. In addition to a passionate hatred for Israel, Hamas has also fought internal battles against the Fatah party and other extremist/terrorist groups and against themselves. In general, Gaza is a pretty violent place where people like to solve things with the barrel of a gun. Elementary school boys are brought into their ranks and trained to hate and to kill and they end up being the foot soldiers of the party (if you can call it a party).
I’m also extremely doubtful how much Israel is really going to accomplish with its anticipated ground invasion and with its airstrikes that do inevitably blow-up ordinary Gazans. Their stated purpose is to bring Hamas to an end, but I’m not sure what that is supposed to look like in reality. There’s over 2 million people in Gaza and the lines between Hamas and ordinary people are not always distinct like everybody wishes it was. What exactly counts as “Hamas”? Can somebody provide a definition? Do you have to physically have a weapon in your hand? Do you have to support the party? Do you have to be in training? Do you have to provide some kind of material/financial assistance to them? Do you have to be complicit? What counts? Hamas is saturated throughout the area, and as I said previously, Hamas is not the only extremist presence in Gaza. The area in general is a pretty radicalized place with a lot of poverty and a lot of resentment. So, you can easily end up with a hydra situation where you cut off the head of the beast, another head pops up, and so on and so forth. Eliminating Hamas will not eliminate the problem.
In the longer-term, demographically, Israel is fighting a losing war. Gazans vastly outcompete Israelis in the bedroom (or on the kitchen table, whatever). It has been said a billion times over the decades, but I do think the two-state solution is the constructive way forward if it can ever actually happen. It isn’t going to stop the violence and I’m sure it won’t stop cross-border violence, but it will still be better than the current situation. Like for example, Hezbollah is anchored in Lebanon, and they are a threat too, but it is better that they are in their own country compared to being based primarily within Israeli territory, although they have some presence in Israel as well.
And then on the subject of radicalization, there is an increasingly serious problem within Israeli politics and the coalition government itself. Netanyahu tries to give himself a clean image to the world as a center/center-right figure, but his cabinet’s finance minister (Bezazel Smotrich) openly identifies himself as a fascist. The coalition government also wants to take power away from the courts and seems to be fine with continued settlement expansion. Essentially, they want more control and more power and fewer legal checks. The population in the USA has traditionally been more pro-Israeli and it still is. We have more Jews here than anywhere else except Israel, but a lot of people right now are scratching their heads at Israel’s government and wondering what exactly is going to happen next.
So, in general, the situation in and around Israel is just crappy. I think it is going to be on the news for a long time. I definitely don’t think the ground invasion is going to accomplish its goal and there is going to be an explosion of stories in the media about so-and-so atrocity.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 03:44 PM |
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The Netanjahu government will be finished after the situation has been resolved.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 23, 2023 04:15 PM |
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Ben80 said:
You forced the Palestinians onto reservations, just as the Americans once did with the Indians. Whatever one may say, this is all a disgusting story.
And you banned their flags.. Only we need your Vyborg.. We don't need the others back.. And USA paid to Indians, and Indians founded casinos.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_gaming is Wikipedian.. You can search for more information.. And then do you want to know what Russia took countries or the origins of Russia? We build together that Palestine gets independency.. What Finland supports.. Don't the head moves from the Vyborg..
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 04:19 PM |
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When a dude sets out to kill 50 people near him, the people in the law will still do an effort to recognize the killer's family is innocent and try to protect them.
When the same killer crosses a border before doing so, the story gets political and the politicians suddenly forgets the concept of innocence and sends bombers to bomb the dude's family, his neighbors, second cousins and even his favorite cricket team. Or imposes massive economic sanctions. Or similar.
*shrug* Either way my first sentence displays that the people in the law do understand the concept of innocence, they just don't give a crap.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 04:37 PM |
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It gets political when it's a host of killers who are affiliated with the government of another country. That's called a declaration of war. And in a political entity that just declared war on another country "innocence" is a pretty relative term from the perspective of the assaulted.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 05:03 PM |
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Everybody claims to be doing such in the name of some such. Even if the dude was a complete individual with no ties with any groups whatsoever, the other country would still send in some bombers or apply economic sanctions or some such.
It's more like "we'll teach you all a lesson, you better clean your own house next time". The problem is that no country ever cleans their own house. Even Hitler was barely ever victim of assassination attempts.
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Blizzard
Adventuring Hero
May Contain Nuts
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posted October 23, 2023 06:13 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 18:24, 23 Oct 2023.
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Kayna said:
It's more like "we'll teach you all a lesson, you better clean your own house next time". The problem is that no country ever cleans their own house.
Correct. Gazans will hold the Israeli government to higher standards and their own government to lower standards, and vice versa with the Israelis towards Gaza. It's called national attractiveness bias.
Which is why it would be better (not good, but better) if there was a two state solution at some point instead of the murkiness of the current situation where Gaza is sort of its own place and sort of not. Make the border an actual real national border. Am I holding my breath for this to happen? Nope.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 07:48 PM |
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Kayna said:
Everybody claims to be doing such in the name of some such. Even if the dude was a complete individual with no ties with any groups whatsoever, the other country would still send in some bombers or apply economic sanctions or some such.
It's more like "we'll teach you all a lesson, you better clean your own house next time". The problem is that no country ever cleans their own house. Even Hitler was barely ever victim of assassination attempts.
"Even if" is completely irrelevant, since hypothetical. It's on the contrary pretty unhelpful because it muddies the pond when you more or less say it doesn't matter whether one dude kills one other guy or hundreds kill thousand, the reaction would always be the same.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 08:09 PM |
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Well yeah, the Zionists decided they were going to take that land a long time ago
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 23, 2023 10:06 PM |
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The UN resolution 181 suggested to create a Jewish state, an arab state und put Jerusalem under international control - but neither Britain nor the security council took any effort to implement 181.
Also, after it's foundation both the US and the USSR recogbized the new state immediately.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 23, 2023 10:12 PM |
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Kayna said:
Well yeah, the Zionists decided they were going to take that land a long time ago
And who were native cizitens? The God commanded Jews conquer their the country, and the God commanded the country becomes Israel.. Ok Geny is Jewish, and Geny's homeland is Israel.. What would happen if some native citizen takes Israel? I doubt Kurds were native citizens.. When I don't know their history.. Only they haven't a country.. Ok in Egypt had lived black people.. Jews destroyed Egypt.. and gave to other culture.. Aha the God isn't existence, because terrorists or other state can destroy Israel.. I can't accept.. We need Jewish brain.. Only problem their religion and not yet shared two countries become state..
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2023 04:50 AM |
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The United States has accused Iran of attacks on American military bases in the Middle East. "We know that these groups are supported by Iran. We do not necessarily see that Iran explicitly ordered them to undertake these types of attacks. However, by virtue of the fact that they are supported by Iran, we will ultimately hold Iran responsible." said US Department of Defense spokesman Patrick Ryder.
(my comment: "we are not sure of anything, but you are to blame, because we want it so")
The most important thing is that the Americans did not say where these bases are located. These bases are located in northern Syria and Syria cannot expel them, and the Americans pump oil there for free. And these bases supposedly guard oil on the border with Iraq, but they themselves simply steal it.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 24, 2023 09:27 AM |
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Rarely did the US say compensation with oil.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2023 09:43 AM |
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Ghost said:
Rarely did the US say compensation with oil.
On the scale of the US state these are very small volumes of oil. Most likely, this is a crime on the part of the American military, who “earn money” in this way. They also “earned money” from heroin when they were in Afghanistan. After the US arrived in Afghanistan, the flow of heroin from there increased tenfold. Now (after the withdrawal of the United States), the Taliban have already reduced heroin production several times.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 24, 2023 04:00 PM |
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Ok Ben80.. A good HC friend! I ask you: Are you law abiding? Yes, some people commit crimes.. Even if they aren't murder.. How can I say? Do you understand? No one is perfect.. But Hamas isn't law abiding.. Why? Their sense says to attack Israel and their hospital.. Which is healthier? Drug user and/or seller or act of terrorism? I know that some uses drug in workplace, because you told.. And you don't see Hamas?.. Ok Ben80..
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2023 04:23 PM |
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Ghost said:
I ask you: Are you law abiding?
I have never used drugs or committed any acts of violence. Just like all northern peoples, I love alcohol.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 24, 2023 04:30 PM |
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Your answer, Ben80 
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Blizzard
Adventuring Hero
May Contain Nuts
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posted October 24, 2023 10:24 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 22:41, 24 Oct 2023.
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Ben80 said:
I have never used drugs or committed any acts of violence.
Booooo.  Somebody give this man a penalty.
I am kidding of course. I myself am a mostly peaceful person during most hours of the day.
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Blizzard
Adventuring Hero
May Contain Nuts
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posted October 24, 2023 10:41 PM |
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Edited by Blizzard at 23:01, 24 Oct 2023.
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I think Cenk Uygur (The Young Turks) makes a good point as far as the Palestinian conflict.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRFKkmsDpuw&t=602s
6:50 and onward gets to the part of the interview where they talk about the longer-term goals. Blowing up Palestinians is not a goal towards a realistic objective.
However bad Hamas may be (and yes, they are as bad as/worse than Nazis, because the Nazis at least attempted to coverup and whitewash their ideology whereas Hamas is much more open) it still leaves the question of what objectives the IDF is hoping to accomplish in Gaza. The IDF can't realistically destroy Hamas. Best case scenario, they can kill most of the leadership and confiscate or destroy many or most of the weapons. The leaders will quickly be replaced. The teenage/early 20s grunts will very quickly be replaced.
I think the response from Jerusalem in large part is motivated by a desire to appease the electorate. October 7th is (correctly) seen as a massive security breach under the coalition government and so now they need to respond in some sort of intense way. None of it actually answers the question about what to do with Gaza.
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This thread is pages long: 
